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Egret ID Help!

I took this photo (apologies for the low quality) on the Boardwalk at Mai Po on May 17 2009 thinking it was a non-breeding Swinhoe's Egret since someone in the hide said that was what it was. It always seemed to me that it looked more like what I would expect an Intermediate Egret to look like however, but since none of the photos or illustrations in the bird books I found where very conclusive I have never been sure.

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Can any of you Hong Kong egret experts tell for sure which this is?

Its been bothering me for 2 years now :-)

Thanks

Peter - [email=phumphrey@msp-llc.com]phumphrey@msp-llc.com[/email]

Egret ID Help!

Aplogies I think I posted this on the wrong forum - so I'll repost here.

I took this photo (apologies for the low quality) on the Boardwalk at Mai Po on May 17 2009 thinking it was a non-breeding Swinhoe's Egret since someone in the hide said that was what it was. It always seemed to me that it looked more like what I would expect an Intermediate Egret to look like however, but since I am not familiar with either species and none of the photos or illustrations in the bird books I found where very conclusive I have never been sure.

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Can any of you Hong Kong egret experts tell for sure which this is?

Its been bothering me for 2 years now :-)

Thanks

Peter - [email]phumphrey@msp-llc.com[/email]

I think Intermediate will most likely to fit this one. Note the gape line doesn't extend behind the eye.

Thanks - well its definitely not a Great Egret, and I do think Intermediate is likely, but I know there were Swinhoe's reported that same day there, I didn't see any clear Intermediates that day, plus, and this is the real question I have, is I'm not sure what the distinguishing features between an Intermediate Egret and a Swinhoe's Egret at that time of year in situations where a Swinhoe's is not in winter plumage but has not yet entered full breeding plumage (maybe a first summer bird or one that, for whatever reason, is not breeding that year).

All the books I have seen discuss how to tell an Intermediate from a Great Egret (the gape feature you mention is commonly cited, but I thnk this also holds true for a Swinhoe's versus a Great?), or a Swinhoe's from a white morph Pacific Egret, but not how to tell a Swinhoe's in semi-breeding plumage from an Intermediate. The features often mentioned for an Intermediate vis-a-vis a Little Egret - larger size, stubbier yellow bill, thicker neck, etc - are also mentioned for a Swinhoe's vis-a-vis a Little Egret - ie both species, relative to a Little Egret, are typically bigger, with thicker necks and stubbier yellow bills - again just based on the the literature I have found. But if you have a summer Swinhoe's with no head plumes, how do you tell it from an Intermediate?

Looked at a bunch of photos from the Egrets photo section on this site and I see many examples of both Intermediate and Swinhoe's that look to me quite a bit like this bird.

So I am stuck and looking for some help! Plus now I'm just curious as to how anyone would tell them apart.

Thanks

Given the relative status of Swinhoe’s (rare) and Intermediate (fairly common) in Hong Kong, and given that we see birds like the one in your photo throughout the year, I would, if I were sitting in the hide at Mai Po, id this bird as Intermediate without giving it any real thought.

If I saw a similar egret wading in shallow water, actively running after fish and raising its wings, then the idea of Swinhoe’s might come to mind. I would then focus on the legs and feet to see if they had a greenish or greenish-yellow tinge. If they did, then I would definitely be considering the possibility of a non-breeding plumage Swinhoe’s.  Probably then I would focus on the length of the bill, comparing it with any Intermediate Egrets on the mudflats to see if it appeared proportionately longer… Not really sure where I’d go from there though.

By which, I guess I mean to say that you have a very good point re. the similarity of Intermediate & Swinhoe’s in non-breeding plumage, and I would tentatively suggest feeding behaviour and leg colour as indicators of  Swinhoe’s.

As far as I know, no birds like that have been photographed at Mai Po – all the photos I can find on the website of Swinhoe’s are of adults – almost all of them of birds in shallow water! I am certain that the Swinhoe’s that you heard people referring to would have been adults also.

Going back to the photo, the fact that the egret is feeding on mud and that the legs appear to be grey, makes it hard for me to think that this could be Swinhoe’s and not Intermediate.

David

Difficult to judge size from the photo.  From the shape of the bill, I would go for Great Egret.  The shape of the neck can be misleading, and I have fallen into trap a few times.  With only one photo, I would not take the shape of the neck on this photo to separate Intermediate from Great Egret.

HF Cheung

Thanks - that confirms what i always thought which is that it was an Intermediate and not a Swinhoe's. Oh well, guess I'll have to return to HK one day to see one of those :-)

Thanks again

This bird is certainly not Swinhoe's. The bird is too large, and the proportions do not really fit - especially the bill which is fairly long in Swinhoe's. Swinhoe's is a small egret, and the confusion would be with Little Egret. Non-breeding Swinhoe's has a dark bill and is very difficult to separate from Little - you need to check bill shape (thicker and blunter-tipped, not tapering to a point as in Little, but still relatively long), leg length, leg/foot colour, etc
Intermediate is actually much more likely to be confused with Eastern Cattle Egret than Swinhoe's.

I'm actually with Ho fai on this bird, in that I think it's difficult on this photo to rule out Great Egret. Some Greats are not as obvious as you might think - looking smaller with shorter, thicker necks and shorter bills - and therefore more like Intermediate. For me, the bird in your photos does not look as short-billed and round-headed as I expect for Intermediate. But I'm not really sure about the ID of this individual from this one photo.

Agree with John and Ho Fai that it may be a Great Egret.

For me, the bill and shape of its head of the bigger white egret is "too sharp" and the neck is too long to be an Intermediate Egret.