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Digiscoping with the Canon G10

I've been wanting to get my hands on the G10 to try digiscoping with it for some time as I know it's a great camera ( I have the G6).  I bought one on Friday and tested it with various eyepieces - Swarovski 30x, Televue 32 mm Plossl, Televue 12mm Radian, Kowa 27x LER and Kowa 25x LER .  The only eyepieces that gave good , unvignetted views were the Kowas.  The G10 needs a lot of Eye Relief which the Kowas have.  I have to use a balance bar to be able to slide the camera in and out as I zoom the lens .Here are some tests with the camera at home and out in the field.
Neil

Canon G10 plus Swarovski STS80HD scope and Kowa 25x LER eyepiece and homemade balance bar

Hong Kong,
China.
02/05/09

非常非常之sharp... 有無汁過?

Wow
Congratulations
very sharp and nice !
355141fe3244445

Hi Neil,

I bought a G10 few days ago, I tried to used it with my STS80HD with 30x eyepiece. But the result is horrible.
I read your post mentioned about Kowa 25x LER with the STS80HD and work well.

May I have some question on it?
1) Can Kowa 25x LER connect to STS80HD directly?
2) Can you take a picture of this setting?

Thanks
Dick

Hi Neil,

I read your thread on birdforum, how can you do this with SWA 30x + DCA + G10????

[url]http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=140498[/url]

and I search your flickr, is it a direct connect between STS80HD and 25x LER?

[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/7892550@N03/3308478125/in/set-72157614341197469/[/url]

Thanks
Dick

I am interesed in the G10 bcoz I can also go underwater shooting with its Cannon underwater housing at an affordable price, rather cost effective in that sense.

Finally solve the problem with the DCB
STS80HD + G10 + 30x

2009-06-20 Kowloon Park
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0093.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0127.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0147.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0184.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0240.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0245.jpg[/img]

STS80HD + 30x + G10

F8
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0202.jpg[/img]

F2.8
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0203.jpg[/img]

台灣單筒達人洪董先生說 digiscoping 系統使用的目鏡倍率不可太高
目鏡約 10x-20x , dc 約 3x-5x
小弟也是建議 , DICK 兄若使用 10X 或 20X ... 畫質一定會更好 ....

[[i] Last edited by papago at 21/06/2009 16:18 [/i]]

[quote]Original posted by [i]dick[/i] at 20/06/2009 21:45 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=20779&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
STS80HD + 30x + G10

F8
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0202.jpg[/img]

F2.8
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0203.jpg[/img] [/quote]

Sorry I didn't reply earlier.  I'm glad you've sorted out the connection with the DCB.  Nice photos, particularly the night heron.
The Canon adapter comes in two pieces.  I just use the first piece and screw to the screw thread on the Kowa eyepiece using stepup/stepdown rings.
I don't zoom the camera lens much as vignetting will come in.
Neil.

[quote]Original posted by [i]papago[/i] at 21/06/2009 16:07 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=20786&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
台灣單筒達人洪董先生說 digiscoping 系統使用的目鏡倍率不可太高
目鏡約 10x-20x , dc 約 3x-5x
小弟也是建議 , DICK 兄若使用 10X 或 20X ... 畫質一定會更好 .... ... [/quote]

想問一下, 我還是想用DSLR來digiscope, 以你所講的3x-5x的倍率, 那麼我是否應該配一個105mm-175mm (35mm x3/35mm x5)的定焦鏡頭來做到洪兄所說的setting? 若果只用50mm標準鏡, 就失去了3-5倍率吧?!3551a50445

[quote]
想問一下, 我還是想用DSLR來digiscope, 以你所講的3x-5x的倍率, 那麼我是否應該配一個105mm-175mm (35mm x3/35mm x5)的定焦鏡頭來做到洪兄所說的setting? 若果只用50mm標準鏡, 就失去了3-5倍率吧?!3551a50445 ... [/quote]


我跟洪董先生的測試都是指在 DC for digiscoping 的情況下 , 我不清楚 DSLR+望遠鏡筒的應用  ... , 我看人家用 DSLR 好像都是直接接望遠鏡目鏡 , 中間沒有 DSLR 定焦鏡頭 ....

Manson

以下為30x + 50/1.8, 當時好混亂, 天氣又唔好, 又九里遠, 鳥屋又振, 迫住用手按shutter
DSLR 50mm digiscoping 影就一定影到, 不過先要解決機身平衡 及 反光板振盪的問題
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100343/7Z3V1376.jpg[/img]

[quote]Original posted by [i]dick[/i] at 22/06/2009 15:30 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=20795&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Manson

以下為30x + 50/1.8, 當時好混亂, 天氣又唔好, 又九里遠, 鳥屋又振, 迫住用手按shutter
DSLR 50mm digiscoping 影就一定影到, 不過先要解決機身平衡 及 反光板振盪的問題[/quote]

唔該dick兄, 這幅相雖然不算是佳作, 但以咁多限制黎講, 都已經可以收貨 (我想1200mm都影唔到這樣的效果吧?) 至少我都會滿意.

如果像papago兄這樣setup digiscope, 應該DSLR都無問題, 但係鳥屋震呢個真係惡搞o的, 但係個個都有呢個問題, 都算扯平吧?! 3551sweat445

KOWA有自己的universal mount system, 有圖睇個setup係點樣, 好似幾可靠, 佢係專門設計俾人駁DV, DSLR, 而且有幾款不同的convertor同唔同diameter的adaptor ring, 好似幾handy喎. 3551cd08785a445

Dick兄这些照怕的很好啊!

Stop patronizing, dude.

[quote]Original posted by [i]Robbin[/i] at 24/06/2009 01:20 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=20821&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Stop patronizing, dude. [/quote]

Robbin, my apology if you think it's patronizing.  I don't have any relationship with anything about KOWA.  So NOT an ADVERTISEMENT or BOOST.

I'm concerned with this brand because I want to setup digiscoping as well.  After many comments and setup pictures of other experienced, I've found out that many brands, even SwaXXvski, have insufficient accessories to reduce vibration when taking images.  I find the setup by KXXa (I'd better mask some of it otherwise your comment is again 'stop patronizing, dude') is more easy and handy.  That's my comment.  NOT hard sell.

I've asked papago about this brand too since he has mentioned about his digiscope setup at the other thread.  I also thought about having the same setup like papago but the brand he mentioned was never seen in HK (at least I haven't seen it so far).  That's why I think about other brands.

I doubt whether we should mask all the brand names when talking about photographing stuff and be cautious in comments when we think a particular brand behaves/feels better as you have SO MUCH CONCERN about it? 3551sweat445

I'm interesting Digiscoping and search many discuss from HKBWS basically using Swxxxxxxx, how about Zexxx because lens diameter 85 bigger than 80. Thanks.

[[i] 本帖最後由 mhs 於 24/06/2009 12:34 編輯 [/i]]

Canon G10 with 20-60x eyepiece @ 20x
G10 @ 28mm, cannot zoom, disappointed3551ee1a2adb445
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0455.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0457.jpg[/img]

[[i] Last edited by dick at 14/07/2009 12:03 [/i]]

[quote]Original posted by [i]mhs[/i] at 24/06/2009 12:25 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=20828&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
I'm interesting Digiscoping and search many discuss from HKBWS basically using Swxxxxxxx, how about Zexxx because lens diameter 85 bigger than 80. Thanks.

[ 本帖最後由 mhs 於 24/06/2009 12:34 編輯 ] ... [/quote]
I thk the Zexxx、Nikon (certain models)、Leica bla bla bla ....are also good scopes for digiscoping.

I have seen reviews and presentations on utube about those scopes, U may want to check them out.

[[i] Last edited by Robbin at 16/07/2009 01:35 [/i]]

Hi Robbin, thanks reply, finally I bought KW.

[quote]Original posted by [i]mhs[/i] at 16/07/2009 09:13 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=21161&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Hi Robbin, thanks reply, finally I bought KW. [/quote]


Good for you, post some photos when U are ready, cannot wait.

[quote]Original posted by [i]dick[/i] at 20/06/2009 21:43 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=20778&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Finally solve the problem with the DCB
STS80HD + G10 + 30x

2009-06-20 Kowloon Park
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_0093.jpg[/img]

[url]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/saku[/url] ... [/quote]

I just purchased STS 80HD and under setup. After view your sharp photos. I think I will buy a G10. Before that, would you mind to disclose what setting you applied in G10 for Digiscoping?

[[i] Last edited by scchu at 26/07/2009 00:19 [/i]]

個人愚見, G10雖然是一部好相機, 但G10 並不太適合用在digiscoping上
因為如果G10 zoom , 會出現好大個"黑圈"

我的setting 是 DCB + G10, 把G10 wide到28mm, 將鏡頭差不多貼住eyepiece,
如果eyepiece 是20-60x, 最好不要買G10, 可見我上面"荷花"的效果 (reply #19), 如果eyepiece是30x prime, 都可以勉強把它變成 30 * 28 的長鏡用

[quote]Original posted by [i]dick[/i] at 26/07/2009 07:54 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=21249&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
個人愚見, G10雖然是一部好相機, 但G10 並不太適合用在digiscoping上
因為如果G10 zoom , 會出現好大個"黑圈"

我的setting 是 DCB + G10, 把G10 wide到28mm, 將鏡頭差不多貼住eyepiece,
如果eyepiece 是20-60x, 最 ... [/quote]

講真, 我個目鏡就是20x-60x. 在這情況, 唯有另找DC。 各位ching, 有沒有好介紹?

現在我有一部Panasonic DMC-FX580, 當然它不是一個好選擇, 只不過是之前用開。 經個人測試後, 發現在30x時、DC不zoom及主體夠大, 它才能用近拍設定後正確對焦。 想知, 是不是用Macro對焦先至好?

[[i] Last edited by scchu at 27/07/2009 15:46 [/i]]

Canon G11 出來啦 ~ 有翻轉螢幕 , 若跟 G10 一樣有電子快門線的話
那真是 for Digiscoping 夢幻機種

數位視野 DCVIEW
[url]http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/newreadarticle.asp?id=7836[/url]

攝影家手札
[url]http://digital.photosharp.com.tw/DIGITAL/Content.aspx?News_No=7535&Lang=0[/url]

[[i] Last edited by papago at 21/08/2009 20:59 [/i]]

為什麼會是夢幻機種，反mon有什麼關系？ 3551a50445

根據我的經驗 , digiscoping 使用的 dc 最好有下列特性

1.電子快門線 , 更能防微震 ; 還有, 使用機械快門線 - 拆裝電池記憶卡不方便 , 電子快門線不會妨礙電池與記憶卡拆裝 , 但機械快門線(座)會 (我遇過幾次拍鳥中突然沒電 , 為了換電池還得連機械快門座拆下來才能換電池 , 真是急死人了 ...)
2.翻轉螢幕 , 因 LCD 在室外觀測易反光 , 可調整角度的 LCD 較易於調整到減少反光角度 , 另外超低角度拍水鳥 , 人也不用跟著趴下去 , 有了翻轉螢幕也比較不用 CARE 所使用的單筒是直筒還是斜筒 , [url=http://www.dcview.com.tw/gallery/showmsg.asp?msgid=724729&searchitem=joinus&posit=97]低角度拍水鳥請參考[/url]
3.光學倍率約 3X - 5X (台灣單筒達人洪董建議)
4.高階機種畫質
5.digiscoping 罩門就是快門速度低 , 聽說 G11 已加強快門可達 1/2000 , 高 ISA 畫質也比 G10 改進
6.至於 Dick 兄所述 G10 接單筒會有黑圈 , 我目前是認為應該跟套筒及目鏡口徑或單筒廠牌有關 , 也許我的 kamakura 83ed 不會有3551em012445   , 等我買了 G11 再跟各位報告

其實還有一項 , 但我一直沒機會試試 RICOH 品牌 , 前四項功能目前 RICOH GX 系列都有 , 但 RICOH GX 系列還多了電子觀景器 , 其它廠牌還沒看到有此配備 , 我認為 "Digiscoping + 電子觀景器" [color=Red]對拍飛行中的鳥會更容易[/color] , 但這只是臆測 , 臆測原理為 : DSLR 系統中 , Canon 50D 可跟 DC 一樣 LIVE VIEW 拍攝 , 但我們可以想像 , 透過 LIVE VIEW 拍飛行中的鳥比較容易 ? 還是透過傳統方式 - 眼睛貼到光學觀景窗拍飛行中的鳥比較容易 ? 這就是我臆測所根據的原理 , 若有人使用過 RICOH GX 系列接單筒並有使用電子觀景器 , 可以分享一下心得



加上 電子觀景器 的 RICOH GX 系列
[img]http://rp1.monday.vip.tw1.yahoo.net/res/gdsale/st_pic/0527/st-527253-6.jpg?u=20092425120620&o=RICOH-GX100-439.jpg[/img]

[[i] Last edited by papago at 22/08/2009 12:27 [/i]]

我部 Olympus C7070 都可以反 mon 架，不過無快門線 3551smile445

Papago兄, 你是指Canon EOS 50D抑或500D? 我現在用500D, 有live view function, 但對焦很慢(要長按鈕直至對焦準確的時間遠比按shutter拍照長得多), 原因live view function其實是用來拍video, 所以對焦的方法不像拍照的方法那樣靈敏.  但我認為都有優勢, 因為無論如何digiscoping手動對焦是無可避免吧?3551cf742eb3445

另外電子快門線相信G11不可能沒有吧, 舊的機種都支援...唔, 我相信G11可以有raw format儲存吧?3551em012445

[[i] Last edited by thinfor at 21/08/2009 23:47 [/i]]

[quote]Original posted by [i]puppymic[/i] at 21/08/2009 23:41 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=21597&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
我部 Olympus C7070 都可以反 mon 架，不過無快門線 3551smile445 [/quote]



有使用機械快門線嗎 ? 有無使用快門線拍鳥(尤其是 digiscoping 這種 "長焦低快門" 的系統) , 畫質會差很多喔 ...

[quote]Original posted by [i]thinfor[/i] at 21/08/2009 23:45 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=21598&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Papago兄, 你是指Canon EOS 50D抑或500D? 我現在用500D, 有live view function, 但對焦很慢(要長按鈕直至對焦準確的時間遠比按shutter拍照長得多), 原因live view function其實是用來拍video, 所以對焦的方法不像拍 ... [/quote]


50D 也有 LIVE VIEW , 其實我的 40D 就有 "半套" LIVE VIEW 了 , 只是從來沒用過
(40D 使用LIVE VIEW 後只能手動對焦 , 所以我稱它只有 "半套" LIVE VIEW ; 50D 是 "全套" LIVE VIEW - 使用或不使用 LIVE VIEW 都可自動對焦)
OLYMPUS E 系列 DSLR 很早就有 LIVE VIEW , 但我相信牠的 LIVE VIEW 不是用來拍動態影像(VIDEO)的 , 因為 OLYMPUS DSLR 不能拍動態影像3551lol445 (新機種我就不曉得了)  , 早期 E 系列上的 LIVE VIEW 只是為了把 DSLR 做的像 DC 的拍攝方式 (很多 DSLR 初學者喜歡這樣)

至於您說的 , digiscoping 不管怎麼拍都是要手動對焦, 沒錯 , 但我是說接上電子觀景窗 , 或許會 "更容易" 拍飛行中的鳥 , 但當然仍不可能跟 DSLR 自動對焦那樣拍法
1.DSLR 上也是有很多手動鏡 , 我認識有人用萊卡手動鏡追拍飛行版 , 這跟 digiscoping+電子觀景窗+手動對焦 有更類似的操作
2.手動鏡拍飛行版其實有個技巧 , 那就是打開連拍功能 , 拍攝中不停手動調焦 , 連拍時間長的話 , 應該會中一兩張清晰的 , 但 digiscoping 若沒有電子觀景窗 , 不要說拍了 , 使用 LCD 連要找移動中的目標物都很困難

"G10 有電子快門線 , 相信G11不可能沒有吧, 舊的機種都支援..." => 很難講 , G11 規格上沒寫到這一點 , 還要再確認 , 也許 Canon 為了某些原因把舊機有的規格拿掉 , 就像早期 G 系列本就有翻轉螢幕 , G6(還是G7) 以後就沒有 , G11 又恢復有翻轉螢幕 ; 至於 raw format , G9 以後都一直有 , G11 規格上也有寫道 , 目前高階 DC 應該都有  raw format 儲存


P.S. 以上討論只在接 DC 的 digiscoping 上 , 至於 dslr 版 digiscoping 應該沒有觀景窗的問題(dslr 本身就用觀景窗拍攝) , 但小弟不喜歡用 dslr 做 digiscoping (畫質看起來沒有比較好, 焦長沒有比 dc 長)...

Canon A640 + Kamakura 83ed                                                     
[img]http://digitraveler.homelinux.com/20090426/IMG_3611_2.JPG[/img]

SONY V1 + Kamakura 83ed
雖然 V1 只有 500 萬畫素 , 但我覺得 SONY V1 對明暗細節(對比) 控制的比較好 , 當然也可能因天候場景不同 (跟上一張拍攝時間相距約 一年) , 若我沒看錯資料 , [color=Red]聽說 G11 的感光元件改採使用 SONY CCD[/color]
[img]http://digitraveler.homelinux.com/20080423/DSC06312.JPG[/img]

[img]http://digitraveler.homelinux.com/20080423/DSC06405.JPG[/img]

[[i] Last edited by papago at 22/08/2009 12:30 [/i]]

80HD STS + Kowa 27x LER + G10
Long Valley
2009/10/26
[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1063.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1058.jpg[/img]

I'm about to buy a digiscoping outfit. I plan to buy the Swarovski ATM 80 HD.

I was wondering if anybody knows whether the Canon G10, which I have, works with the Swarovski UCA adaptor, or the DCB?

I particularly need to have the ability to switch quickly between observation and digiscoping. Does anybody know which of the two adaptors is better in this respect?

Thanks for any help.

Geoff Carey

cgeoff：
The UCA DCB is allegedly for DSLR and DCs's, I have seen a Canon DSLR mounted on it, so I thk it will work for G10 or G11 as well.  Meanwhile, I think yr safe bet is to take a look at the specification of the SWA adapter to see the weight limit it carries.

And there are a lot of swing arm camera adapters such as Baader camera adapter, Zhumell swing Arm digital camera adapter around, if U want something less ostentatious， less conspicuous, take a look at them as well.  They aren't as elegant as the SWA adapter, but a lot less expansive.

[[i] Last edited by Robbin at 16/12/2009 02:08 [/i]]

Many thanks indeed, Robbin.

You're right, the Swarovski adaptor is not cheap. I hadn't realised there were other alternatives, so thanks for those. I'll check them out.

From YouTube, it seems that the UCA involves a single smooth movement to take the camera out of the way, whereas the DCB involves the removal of the camera from the set-up, albeit fairly easily. I guess that's why weight is an issue with the UCA.

Guess I may have to go to the Swarovski showroom to see the two set ups and handle them for myself.

Geoff

[[i] Last edited by cgeoff at 16/12/2009 14:16 [/i]]

Cgeoff:
Price is one issue, may not very important to some, but my main concern is the movement of the DCB, too great a movement may scare away....whatever U are watching.
robbin.

2009/12/19 Mai Po
STS80 + 30x + Hand-held G10 (The fastest way to switch between scope and camera)

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1113.jpg[/img]
ISO:80 F2.8, 1/500 sec

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1116.jpg[/img]
ISO:80 F3.5, 0.02 sec

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1160.jpg[/img]
ISO 200 F3.5, 1/320 sec

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1170.jpg[/img]
ISO 80 F3.5, 1/400 sec

[img]http://images1.fotop.net/albums/sakura100/sakura100406/IMG_1202.jpg[/img]
ISO 200  F3.5, 1/500 sec

[[i] Last edited by dick at 21/12/2009 11:34 [/i]]

G10好Sharp，用Canon G系列就是有信心。
有个问题一直困扰着，月初时用老机器Canon G2+Pentax 80ED，最近买了GH1，接上后用很多手动镜头，但效果都不及我这部古董G2，搞不懂3551a50445
记得当年从G1开始买，这部G2已经是第二部G2，之前的G1和早一部银色G2都有失焦问题，偏后和对焦点偏移问题，当时经常去Canon CS都不能解决问题，
一直到换了现在手中这部黑色G2才没事，后来换单反就没接触G系列相机了，我觉得相机调教准度可以分别很大，当然现在的QC比以前成熟多了。
现在我有点担心我是否遇到以前同样的问题，也有可能GH1接手动镜头时产生的问题。
不知道用GH1接其他廠镜头用的C-hing有没有遇到这样的问题？总是觉得图片不够Sharp，当然不是脚架震动做成，但不排除快门帘做成，
或者是相机本身没调节好？我用的是日本menu的水货机，看不懂，有無C-hing帮手？
谢谢！

Dick,

I'm impressed by your hand held shots. What shutter speed and ISO were you at?

Geoff

[quote]Original posted by [i]cgeoff[/i] at 21/12/2009 09:13 [url=http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=25917&ptid=8131][img]http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
Dick,

I'm impressed by your hand held shots. What shutter speed and ISO were you at?

Geoff [/quote]

Dear Geoff,

I've updated the shooting details on the above post.

Rgds,
Dick