fneil

Digiscoped on lamma today.  Is it a Verditer Flycatcher?
Neil

Nikon V1 and 10/2.8 lens and Kowa lens/scope and Kowa 30x eyepiece and DA adapter

Lamma Island,
Hong Kong,
China

23/11/11


verditer flycatcher V1_DSC7208 copy by neilfif11

yuyinman88

beautiful!good shot!

tmichael

My instinctive reaction, without checking references closely - I've just had a quick look on OBI - is that it looks more like Pale Blue Flycatcher, but we've been here before with this species pair.

Interested to see what others think - it'd only be the second PBF I think and first for 20 years.

Mike Turnbull

brendank

There seems to be a slight hint of the dark chevrons that we would expect to see on the undertail coverts of Verditer Flycatcher but it is a bit hard to tell for sure. Any pictures of the undertail coverts would be helpful.

Other than seeing the undertail coverts, I am not sure how to tell Verditer from Pale Blue. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can comment.

kkoel

From OBC images, Pale Blue males show a reflective "tiara" like most other medium-sized "Blue Flycatchers", and has a longer, more hooked bill than Verditers. Both tend to show chevrons on the under-tail, although these are fainter in some (subspecies? of) Pale Blues.

This bird shows a stout bill, with no contrasting cyan sheen on the forehead - both consistent with typical female Verditer.

[ Last edited by kkoel at 23/11/2011 23:15 ]

ajohn

So, it's time again for the annual Verditer / Pale Blue Flycatcher debate...
Personally I think this bird looks exactly like a female Verditer.

Either way, it's a fantastic photo. Congratulations Neil.

ajohn

For a discussion on the ID of these species, see this link:
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/view ... 2Bblue%2Bflycatcher

I still think Neil's bird is a Verditer.

fneil

This is the only other different view I have. It only stayed around for a few seconds.
I posted the previous photo on Birdforum for discussion and consensus was Pale Blue. Actually no vote for Verditer.  I posted it as a possible Verditer so as not to influence any discussion.
Neil


verditer flycatcher V1 kw30x_DSC7230 by neilfif11

mguy

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=216948

lmichael

I agree with John and Koel; this is a typical female Verditer Fycatcher.

Nice photos though.

Mike Leven

fneil

Here's a better profile shot.
Neil


verditer flycatcher V1_DSC7215 by neilfif11

fneil

Here is another comment from an experienced overseas birder -
"Immature male C. unicolor.  The bill of the Eumyias is shorter, looks spiky, the bill tip is sharper and it is laterally compressed respect to the Cyornis (which here we can see is rounder laterally and rounded on the tip)."
Neil

tmichael

The plot thickens!!!

Actually it was partly the bill, which although foreshortened in the original image still looked relatively long, + the "powdery" blue and grey tones, which could be a product of light etc, which prompted my original suggestion.

Agree it probably is Verditer, but PBF seems to breed over quite a wide area to the north and could be being overlooked.

Mike Turnbuull

wgeoff

In view of the discussion on this bird, I've taken copies of the photos for submission to the Records Committee for their view although this will take some time.

The underpart colouration is darker in the third photo but this seems either a light effect or due to water on the feathers. Perhaps Neil can comment.

ajohn

With respect to bill structure compare Neil's bird with this Verditer: http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1
and with this Pale Blue: http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1

Even accounting for possible subspecific differences in Pale Blue bill structure, I still see no reason that this bird is not a verditer. Bill structure and plumage both look exactly like female verditer and in my opinion do not fit pale blue (look especially at head pattern and underparts colour compared to the bird I have linked).

For some reason one of these birds gets reported almost every year as a pale blue and every year we go through the same arguments and eventually reach the conclusion that it's a female verditer. For some reason there seems to be a belief that pale blue 'must be occurring in Hong Kong in winter' based on an old record of a bird singing in spring. There has (as far as I am aware) been no claims of females, even though these appear from photos to be relatively distinctive (not as difficult as other female Cyornis, and at this time of year most Hainan Blue have migrated so any female cyornis should stand out).

sdavid

I agree with you John (and both Mikes and Koel). The bill and head pattern look like a female Verditer. The bill doesn't appear to me to be long or wide enough at the base for PB, and lacks such an obvious hook as shown in the OB images of PB. Also the pale eye ring appears to be more consistent with Verditer.

Nice shot of it on the deck though

fneil

The bills are confusing me as I look through all the photos. This one doesn't show the hooked bill as seen in the previous link.
http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1

Neil

fneil

I have a video of this bird which may give some more detail to nail the id.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/789 ... 7319/in/photostream
Neil

Canon SX40HS

Lamma Island,
Hong Kong,
China
29/11/11


verditier flycatcher sx40hs IMG_4260.jpg by neilfif11

kkoel

I think the angle of the bill is the source of confusion - there is in fact a hook if you look closely, and the broad base of the bill is apparent especially when you compare with the short, comparatively narrow-based bill of Verditer.