lmichael

Hi All

I am not a photographer - I use a digital SLR mostly for work and occasionally a few bird photos.

However, I will shortly be doing a trip where space will be very limited but where there might be the odd once in a lifetime photo-opportunity - Bolivia.

Can anyone suggest a small camera that would go well with my Swarovski scope? Cost not too critical but ease of operation is!

Thanks very much.

Mike Leven

tbob

Mike,

I would like to suggest a Nikon 8400, I have been using this model for a little over 6 months with some degree of success, but unfortunately this camera has been discontinued for over a year and would be very difficult to find.

Neil, has a better knowledge on the latest camera models that work with the Swarovski scope.

One thing to bear in mind is that failure rate (out of focus shots etc ) is fairly high but the magnification is a lot higher than with a regular DSLR.

Bob Thompson

fneil

Mike , there are many cameras out there these days that will enable you to take reasonable photos through a scope. The ability to take an adapter is a limiting factor for most of them though.  If you have an angled scope it is a simple matter to insert a tube into your rubber eyepiece cap just long enough to keep the camera lens from touching the eyepiece and then you can hand hold and fire away .  The best camera for doing this is the Fuji F30 which has low noise up to iso 800 so you can get high shutter speeds to reduce vibration. Bob and I are using the Nikon CP8400 which is the best digiscoping camera ever in my opinion and can still be found in HK in Times Square at CKC but is expensive (near Broadway on 8/9 floor ).  It will take an adapter and fit on the Swarovski DCA adapter. Electronic Viewfinder , wide angle lens (24mm) and works great with the 30x eyepiece. The next best would be the Olympus 7070wz but old model now. The Nikon P series work ok, Sony W series, Olympus 350/330.
If you have any questions let me know, Neil.

ckacheung

Neil:

you have said that if I had an angled scope it was a simple matter to insert a tube into my rubber eyepiece cap just long enough to keep the camera les from touching the eyepiece and then I could hand hold and fire away .  May I know how long the tube is enough ??
How to calculate the tube's length.

fneil

It's a trial and error process as it depends on the camera and the eyepiece. Hand hold the camera and move it in and out at wide zoom until you find the spot where you get a sharp round circle aroud the image (vignetting). Then slowly zoom the camera lens until the vignetting goes away. This should be "ground zero" . Questimate the distance and cut a toilet roll center or something similar ( a roll of paper ) to the length and then check again. When you've got the exact distance you can cut a more substantial tube ( plumbers pipe, pill bottle ).  As an alternative have a look at this site
http://www.srb-griturn.com/ for a good universal adapter.

Neil.

tbob

I would suggest that you watch the lens as you move the zoom control on the camera, when you have worked out the zoom position where the lens extends the most from the camera. Measure the distance from the camera body to the end of the zoom at this zoom position and add a mm or so.

The idea is that the tube is long enough so that you can fully zoom the lens without it hitting the scope eyepiece.

Depending on the camera model and zoom, you may get vignetting (black corners) at some zoom settings

Bob

PS: Neil posted a better explanation while I was still typing mine

lmichael

Hi Bob and Neil

Thank you very much for the very helpful advice - just got to my computer after a long day so I need to 'digest' when I'm not so tired!

Best regards

Mike

puppymic

Dear Neil

I have a STS80HD, and will buy a 20x-60x eyepiece.

May I ask whether the Olympus C7070wz can be used with the DCA adaptor? The shopkeeper suggests me to buy DCB because many camera can use DCB, is it better choice?

Thanks

tbob

Neil, Is away on holiday's until the 1st week of Jan, I am sure he will answer your query then

Bob

yyattung

Hi Mike,

I think you should consider the adaptor as well, along with camera.

The adaptor could help you to get the image from the eyepiece in quicker way, reduce 'shaking' that affect the quality of the photo very much, and you can also make clear focus with one hand (i.e. difficult to hold camera by one hand and get good focus with other hand - same question for shaking!).

I know the latest adaptor for your telescope could fit different kind of camera. But the adaptor could be easily out of stock in Hong Kong.

If you have decided to buy the adaptor, I think you can bring all the adaptor, telescope (and tripod as well) to the camera shop and try different cameras. Then, you will have some idea which camera you should buy. Surely, what Neil has suggested seem to be the best option in the market.

Last comment is that good digiscoping also needs many practices. I think you need to some practices after buying all these equipments.

Tung

lmichael

Hi Again

Liz was gently persuaded that the Nikon 8400 was an ideal Christmas present! (I found it at the shop recommended by Neil - I think it may have been the last one in the shop.)

As I am used to a Nikon digital interface I am pleased to say that learning to use the camera has been straightforward albeit nothing fancy yet.

Unfortunately, the one hitch was that the camera shop didn't have an appropriate adapter - I take Tung's suggestion that the ideal thing would be to try it out in the shop but I didn't want to risk losing the camera. So, my next step is to find an adapter. As Tung says (and from my experience) often out of stock so any suggestions as to the best place to try to buy one.

And I take the point about lots of practice needed

Thanks again for all the help

Mike

wcaptain

Mike,

I have one adapter at home and I would not use it in these two weeks. Call me anytime if you need it urgently.

Captain

tbob

Mike,

You need a Nikon adaptor to fit onto the Swarvoski DCA (Digital Camera Adaptor), do you just have the regular 20-60x eyepiece ? I will post the part numbers when I return home from work.

Bob

tbob

Mike,

You need a Nikon UR-E14 Adaptor Ring ( it is a short tube).

1. You unscrew a ring, that is around the lens, on the camera body
2. Screw this tube onto the camera body.

I bought the adaptor tube at Coxell. Hotline number 27290199. (approx HK$200)

You will then need a Swarovski Digital Camera Adaptor (DCA), as this is not usually in stock at photostores I sugget contacting Eric Hau, Swarovski Sales Manager, direct line 2969 6165. (under HK$1500)

The DCA comes with 2 tubes and a number of adaptor rings. The M52 adaptor ring will screw into the Nikon tube and one of the DCA tubes.

The other tube screws on the zoom eyepiece, remove the rubber eyepiece and now both sections of the DCA should fit.

Nikon 8400 camera, I suggest that you upgrade the firmware, because the firmware that ships with the camera will not allow the infra red control to do instaneous shooting.

Go to this website to download the appropriate firmware

http://www.nikon.com.sg/productitem.php?pid=81-96b71aa5d3

If you require further information in setting up the camera, just post your questions

Bob Thompson

puppymic

Dear Bob

Could you please post some photos for the DCA, that is, all parts for a DCA, because I also don't understand how the DCA can connect with a digistal camera?

Thanks
Mandy

tbob

Mandy,

I have taken some photos but unfortunately international internet links to my file server are down and when I try and upload photo's directly to the HKBWS site, I get a pop-up window in Chinese and I don't understand what it means.

I can't think of anyother way of uploading the photos, so you will have to wait.

Bob

PS: I think I have worked out how to uplaod

tbob

3 more photos of setup

tbob

This photo shows one part of the DCA (digital camera adaptor) with the M52 ring attached

puppymic

Bob

Woo, very detailed and clear pictures.  

I finally understand why they can be connected.

Thank you very much

Mandy

wgilman

Is M52 means the adapter with diameter of 52mm?
Is any adapters with other size of diameter available? Because I have a camera with diameter size of 58mm and I am planning to buy a Swarovski ATS 80HD, so I want to ensure whether my camera can attach to the ATS80HD or not.

Also, I would like to know the difference between DCA and DCB adapter, I cannot tell although I have check the official website of Swaroski.


Thanks!

tbob

The Swarovski DCA comes with 4 adaptor rings 28mm,37mm,43mm & 52mm.

[highlight=red]PLEASE NOTE , even if your camera can fit onto the DCA it still may not be suitable for digiscoping[/highlight]. Depending on the camera's method of zooming, it could be totally unsuitable. With the Nikon 8400 camera and a zoom eyepiece you are only able to use the last 10% of the zoom. On the camera's wide angle you get vignetting (black circle around the picture)

Before you consider digiscoping I would recommend doing a google search of your camera name or scope name together with digiscoping, and then judge for yourself what other people worldwide are using.

The Swarovski DCB mounts onto the scope and you are able to swing the camera away from the eyepiece, this method is prefered by some people as it is easier to spot the bird (object) through the scope eyepiece and then swing the camera into position.

The Nikon 8400 camera is one of the few Point & Shoot camera's that has an electronic viewfinder, it is therefore able to operate similiar manner to an SLR and you can focus the scope through the camera's eyepiece. Whereas with most other camera's you will need to focus using the LCD panel.

Bob

tbob

Attached are 2 pdf files from Swarovski listing cameras which either the DCA or DCB will fit.

Remember you still may not be able to use the camera's full zoom

Bob

wgilman

Thanks for your useful advise Bob.

How about the disadvantage of using DCB? Since it can quick switch between observation by eye and shooting by DC, why are you prefer DCA than the DCB adapter?

tbob

Actually I own a DCB and DCA but my preference is the DCA, as I work in video production I am very used to looking through a viewfinder and manually focussing and this is also how I operate my digiscope setup.

The DCB is baulky and takes a little while to adjust the lineup of the camera lens to the scope viewfinder. Generally once you have setup the DCB at the start of a day's birding you will leave the camera attached to the DCB.

It is purely a personal choice as to which adaptor you use and I think if you contacted Swarovski they could show you both setup.

Bob

wgilman

Actually I have seen someone use DCB to take picture, but is any difference on the picture quality between using DCA and DCB? Also, how should I contact Swarovski? Can I call Eric Hau as you mentioned before? Can I bring along my DC to try the setup?
Can I order the equiments directly from Swarovski or I have to order through their retail seller?

Sorry for too many questions, since it is too little source of information on buy digiscoping equiments in Hong Kong for me.

tbob

There should be no diffence in picture quality between the 2 adaptors.

Call Eric Hau and check if you can bring along your camera and Yes you can purchase directly from them.

I would still suggest that you check on the internet to see if other digiscopers are using the setup you are considering to buy.

Bob

wgilman

Really thanks for your help, Bob

I will try to search is there anyone who is using my DC on the digiscoping once the internet is recovered

tbob

Gilman,

After your question about the Swarovski DCB adaptor, I thought I better try mine again, the attached shot is uncropped (100% full frame) and was taken at Nam Sang Wai at lunch time today (30th December 2006). The camera was a Casio EX-Z55 5.0megapixel. As you can see the quality is acceptable for a camera costing just over HK$ 2000.

The DCB was mounted on a Swarovski ATS 80HD scope and a 20-60x zoom eyepiece was used


Bob Thompson

wgilman

Thanks so much, Bob.

The quality of pictures taken by using DCB and a compact Casio DC are already better than "acceptable" for me. I think I will prefer a DCB adapter rather than a DCA since I think that it is quite convenient if I can quick switch between nake eye observation and DC shooting. Thanks again, Bob.

tbob

Gilman,

If you have any problems in the future, regarding the DCB or digiscoping in genera, either post on the web or send me a personal message.

Cheers

Bob

wgilman

Bob,

Sure I will! Hehe!!

sgeoff

I guess with the growing popularity of digiscoping it won't be long before some makes of telescope or camera will be marketing dedicated digiscoping telescope-camera systems.  Or has that already happened?  Seems like it's only going to get better from here.

tbob

Geoff,

Zeiss are about to market an eyepiece with camera attached called a DC4, I believe it has a limited production run, so we may never see them in HK.

Nikon also packages their scopes and cameras and adaptors.

With the "baby boomers" approaching retirement, digiscoping has had a surge of interest, as a low cost entry into bird photography.

puppymic

Dear Bob and Neil

Thanks for your advices.

Here below is my 1st photo using my digiscoping equipments  

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/puppymic/Digiscoping/PC310023.jpg

tbob

Mandy,

A nice shot, I wasn't brave enough to show anybody my first day's digiscoping.

Waiting to see some more shots

Bob

fneil

I've just got back from the US and looked at this thread.  I get all my camera adapters from one of the retailers at the Computer Mall at 298 Henessey Road, Wanchai. I have third party adapters (eg Raynox ) on my Olympus 7070wz and my Nikon CP8400.  These guys have good pricing and always have stock. Neil.

puppymic

Thanks Neil

Actually I can't buy the Raynox adaptor. the shop give me another one, but it is not as good as the Raynox. I will try to find it in Wanchai again.

Mandy

cwchan

Thanks Neil,

Is  the adapter well fit to the scope?

ckacheung

Mandy

How much is the SW scoping len...I felt interested

fneil

[quote:22b0640a55="cchakwing"]Thanks Neil,

Is  the adapter well fit to the scope?[/quote]

Mandy,
          Yes, it's a good fit on the DCA. Neil

fneil

I was able to photograph the same bird in the same place with the two competing technologies. First I used the Nikon D2x plus Nikon 300/f4 AFS lens and the next day I went back with my digsicoping rig. The D2x was from about 3 metres (in a camouflage tent ) on a tripod using a whimberly head. The scoped image was from about 7 metres behind a drapped piece of camouflaged material to obscure my hand and head movements. The light was shaded on both days. Interestingly I used both systems in a similar way . As the bird only stayed on the perch for a few seconds I set Manual Exposure and pre-focused on the branch. The 5 frame sequence of the CP8400 was enough to get the "keeper" image. I didn't have my remote for the D2x so I had to keep my hand on the camera. The noise of the D2x alerted other birds in the area and the male Magpie Robin and Chinese Bulbuls disappeared immediately. With the CP8400 on silent running the birds weren't disturbed.
See if you can pick which image is which. Neil.

Lamma Island,
Hong Kong,
China.
07/01/07

Nikon D2x plus Nikon 300/f4 AFS lens
Nikon CP8400 plus Swarovski STS80HD scope and Sw30x eyepiece and DCA adapter

wgeoff

Neil

They almost look like two different birds. The first, with the bluish tinge to the coverts, looks like a first-winter male, and the second, with a brownish tinge, is like a female. I guess the first is digiscope and the second is lens.

I don't think these technologies really compete, they are complementary. Even the most ardent digiscoper must admit it's difficult to capture a fast-moving bird. And even the most ardent lens photographer must admit the digiscope has more power.

You pays your money and you makes your choice. Or you pays even more money and get both.

cwchan

Dear Neil,

Thank you. I have 2 further question

(a) How can I adopt my Fugi F31(the new  model of the F30) to the DCA as there is no screw or such thing at the camera?
(b) Is your SW 80HD scope a straight one or angled one ? In your experience, is there any difference between these two version  for digiscoping ?

Wing

fneil

[quote:fc5a873bc5="cchakwing"]Dear Neil,

Thank you. I have 2 further question

(a) How can I adopt my Fugi F31(the new  model of the F30) to the DCA as there is no screw or such thing at the camera?
(b) Is your SW 80HD scope a straight one or angled one ? In your experience, is there any difference between these two version  for digiscoping ?

Wing[/quote]

Wing,
        If you have an angled scope you can easily make a little tube support that fits in the rubber eyecup of your eyepiece and holds the camera the right distance away .  There are many designs mentioned on the internet.
I have a Scopetronix EZ-Pix 1 , universal adapter which I was using.  I am currently testing a SRB-Griturn Universal Adapter
http://www.srb-griturn.com/index.php?cPath=89&osCsid=68ce8236eb60e11f6e7ce2ef496b5138
and it looks good . It also allows you to use a cable release which the Scopetronix doesn't.  I tested it today with the Leica C-lux 1 and it worked well. I'll post a report in the next few days with photos.
      I have an Angled  and a Straight Swarovski ( I also have a straight Kowa ) and I much prefer the Straight.  I find it much faster to get onto the bird and it is much easier to use out the hide windows at Mai Po. Neil.

fneil

You pays your money and you makes your choice. Or you pays even more money and get both.[/quote]

Geoff,
         You're quite right there.  I've spent a lot more on my DSLR gear than my digiscoping gear. The 300/2.8 AFS/VR lens alone was worth two Swarovski scopes.
         One advantage of the digiscoping that I like a lot (I do a lot of my photography sitting in the bush semi-camouflaged ) is the zooming ability. I can zoom the CP8400 from about 750 -2250 mm with the 30x eyepiece and from 1125 - 3375 with my new 45x eyepiece. Using my Olympus 7070wz (28 - 112 mm lens ) increases these numbers by 50%. Very useful when one minute you're photographing a Common Tailorbird and next a Cattle Egret.
      I only take my DSLR out to Mai Po about once a month as I'm too old and weak to carry both systems. I'm trying to make an adapter for my 300/f4 lens so that I can digiscope with it. Then I will be close to getting the best of both worlds. Neil.

njimmy

I took this last Xmas at Maipo, using a T3 + Zeiss 85 FL, just hand held to the straight view eyepiece.

puppymic

Neil

Why I can take so sharp picture like yours? The images I take are always blur and small (especially those over the tree)    Any technique pls?

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/puppymic/Digiscoping/P1080247.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/puppymic/Digiscoping/P1080229.jpg

I only can take sharper picture in the river bank of NSW or in Maipo

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/puppymic/Digiscoping/P1080279.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p85/puppymic/Digiscoping/P1080363.jpg

puppymic

Neil

I mean I can't take photos like yours ops:

Very sharp, clear and big pcitures

tbob

Mandy,

Even when digiscoping you must be close to the bird, Neil mentioned above that he had camoflague material over him so that birds wouldn't see him.

Generally in Hong Kong, because of the high pollution levels, try and get between 20 - 30 metres from the subject.

The best place to practice is at Kowloon Park where this shot was taken

Bob

[left]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/350853162_199af27c29_o.jpg[/left]

fneil

[quote="cmandy"]Neil

I mean I can't take photos like yours ops:

Very sharp, clear and big pcitures[/quote

Mandy,
          As Bob mentioned distance and quality of light (as well as time of day ) make a big difference to the photo.  I don't go looking for birds , I go looking for the best light, paticularly in Hong Kong where haze if a problem.
For small birds 7- 20 metres, for larger birds(egrets/herons ) 20 - 30 metres.  Anything more than this is a stretch.   
         I notice from you Exif data that the camera zoom was 20.10 mm which is a bit too much for poor/hazy light. I try to be around 10 mm on the CP8400. Hand holding is difficult too.  Also in the wooden hides at Mai Po there is aways vibration through the floor, especially when there are other people in the hide.
Try the ducks at the Education center at Mai Po after 2.00pm in the afernoon and wait for them to stop swimming around.
I hope this helps, Neil.