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Subject: Avoid disturbance to birds around nests 請勿干擾雀鳥營巢 [Print This Page]

Author: ajohn Time: 12/06/2010 15:49 Subject: Avoid disturbance to birds around nests 請勿干擾雀鳥營巢

Along the Mai Po Access Road today I was concerned to see a number of photographers close to a nest of Black Drongo. My previous experience of this individual has been that, despite nesting very close to the road, she has been shy of human activity and has been leaving the nest as soon as anyone has walked along the road nearby.

I suggested to the photographers that they may be too close to the nest and may be disturbing the birds, but nobody seemed prepared to move away from the nest. Fortunately the bird has apparently been continuing to feed her small chicks despite the presence of people so close to the nest, as I was lucky enough to witness a few minutes later (I was watching from the car several metres along the road to minimise potential disturbance).

I realise that most people interested in birds are aware of the issues, but some birdwatchers and photographers may be more inexperienced and may not realise that staying close to a nest may be a problem. I would like to remind all photographers and birdwatchers that nesting birds can be VERY prone to disturbance. Some birds may abandon a nest if they think there are predators (including people) in the area. The presence of people may also attract the attention of other potential predators, such as cats or crows, which may return to the nest once the people have left.

In the interest of nesting birds, please avoid causing any unnecessary disturbance if you are lucky enough to find a nest. DO NOT visit the nest, DO NOT disturb vegetation around the nest and PLEASE watch the nest only from a safe distance, preferably somewhere that is not visible to the birds.

Thank you

[ Last edited by Webcreeper at 14/06/2010 23:14 ]

Author: Sze Time: 13/06/2010 00:24

John! Totally agree with you!
I am very worry about this nest too!

Some sharing to all of you!
(Originally, I don't want to share this experience during this breeding season, since I don't want disclose the location of the nest!)

I tried to suggest one photographer to stand to the oppsite side of the road from the nest politely on Tue, however, the photographer said that the bird has been continuing to feed her small chicks and it seem not a problem of the presence of people so close to the nest. I wanted to explain to her but she just blamed me more than 10mins that do not to "teach" her what should do and do not "disturb" her to take photos, she don't think it is a problem to the bird!

So if anyone want to give suggestion to the photographers, please be careful!

完全同意你的說法！我也很擔心這個巢！
本來因為不想透露巢位，所以原本沒有想過在這個繁殖季將這件事說出來，
不過既然John說了，那就跟大家分享一下！

星期二時，我也去過探望這個巢，
因為之前已探望過兩次（約隔兩星期才探望一次）,
早於第一次探望時已知道這對鳥非常怕事，
所以每次觀察也站到十多米外，找些草／燈柱做掩護，
觀察一，兩分鐘，快影數張記錄照便走了。

那天見到一個攝影人士企得很近鳥巢（5米內），
但因見鳥兒仍在巢，所以也不敢走近。
等到鳥兒飛開，我嘗試走向那位攝影人士，
想同她說因為這對鳥很怕人，
想問她介唔介意站到馬路的對面。
但我都未說完佢就已經不停大聲同我講，
唔好教佢點做，佢知應該點做，
佢唔覺得佢有打擾隻雀，因為隻雀仲會坐巢，
同飛返黎餵仔，仲有條路日日都有人同車行過，
隻雀都仲係度，即係無問題啦！

我嘗試同佢解釋，不過佢繼續唔俾機會我講野，
只係叫我唔洗再講，唔好阻住佢影相。
如是者，拉鋸左不少於10分鐘。
所以想提醒大家，如果想勸人之前要做好心理準備！

我個人感覺上黑卷尾都係d怕人既雀（雖然佢對住其他雀就好惡！）
我自己都未見過佢地既巢，所以都想做下觀察的。
不過呢對傻雀，佢地真係好怕人，
之前觀察時就算企到10米外，一有眼神接觸就會飛走，
所以我都唔敢俾佢地見到我，次次都企到好遠（十幾米外），
因為怕嚇壞牠們，或令到牠們離巢太耐，
而令鳥蛋／幼鳥缺乏親鳥照顧而有危險
（例如：被猛烈的太陽曬壞，被獵食者捕獵）。
但點解佢地咁怕人都係個咁開揚既位築巢，
就真係唔知點解！

呢巢好叻，佢地已經捱過左最少3場大雷雨，同1日季候風，
隻幼鳥咁辛苦先出到世，我真係唔想佢地大唔到！

[ Last edited by Sze at 13/06/2010 01:43 ]

Author: james10 Time: 13/06/2010 00:30

Even being a rare visitor to Mai Po, I know of the nest you are talking about - it was VERY close to the access road.

I condemn those who will try to disturb bird nests, especially those who continue to do so EVEN AFTER BEING WARNED.

People have become more rude and generally more selfish these days.

[ Last edited by james10 at 13/06/2010 00:32 ]

Author: Sze Time: 13/06/2010 02:33

另外，想補充少少野！
當日我並未能令到那位攝影者站離鳥巢多一些，
實在有點不開心！
但不開心的原因不在於我"輸"了！
而是我沒有辦法幫到那巢黑卷尾！

攝影者站遠一些，對鳥兒一定是只有利，沒有害！
對這巢黑卷尾只有好，沒有壞！
（恕我思想不夠多角度，我真的想不到任何害處！）

但攝影者站得遠些，攝影者"輸"的只是相片質素，
那如果真如那位攝影者所說，她也是愛動物的話，
那為何她要與我爭辯？她要與我鬥氣？
她的目的是要拗贏我嗎？
在事件內，我只是旁觀者，
輸與贏跟我實扯不上任何關係！
（只是"蝕"了給人對著大聲說話十多分鐘！）
我又不是要霸佔她的位置，
要她站遠後，我乘機站近！
為何她要將我趕走方肯罷休？
是動物天生的領域問題？
還是她更關注的，是愛護動物以外的其他事情？

遺憾的，處於弱方的動物似乎總是輸家，
今次就是那巢黑卷尾！

Author: lkatherine Time: 13/06/2010 09:15

Photographers have been standing next to the nest for days. This morning (Sunday) as I cycle by there were at least 7 people standing/sitting right next to the tree, some one even use a ladder to get better angle, helpless! Vegetation next to that tree obviously has been "managed" in some way that it is not blocking the cameras. I can't understand why they need to stand so close given their "super big" lens.

I did saw Sze talking to that rude lady (sorry Sze, can't give you any help at that moment), these people seems to be more "pure photographers" than bird lovers, can only find the photos on other webpages rather than on this BBS.

http://www.dcfever.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=669116&t=669116&page=184
http://www.forum4hk.com/viewthread.php?tid=13795&sid=2lg70Q
http://www.dchome.net/viewthread.php?tid=886738

Plese could anyone who use the above forum forward this thread to these forum.

Feel sorry for the Drongo.

Katherine

Author: kmike Time: 13/06/2010 13:57 Subject: Disturbing nests is against the law

Section 5 of the Wild Animals Protection Ordinance states:
Protection of nests and eggs
No person shall, except in accordance with a special permit, take, remove,
injure, destroy or wilfully disturb a nest or egg of any protected wild
animal. (Amended 58 of 1980 s. 3; 77 of 1996 s. 4)
http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/ord/170/s5.html

If you see this happening again, please collect evidence of the disturbance (number of photographers, how close to the nest, removal of branches for a better view etc) and contact Mr Yam Wing Yiu the AFCD officer responsible for the nature wardens at 2474 2591 or simply go directly to the Mai Po Warden Post and inform the nature wardens.

Mike Kilburn

Author: pasha Time: 13/06/2010 15:06

Quote:

原帖由 lkatherine 於 13/06/2010 09:15 發表
Photographers have been standing next to the nest for days. This morning (Sunday) as I cycle by there were at least 7 people standing/sitting right next to the tree, some one even use a ladder to get ...

唔好意思!!
閣下其中一條連結之相片,是本人所拍的.
但閣下把本人之照片放在妳的文章之下,好像把本人說成其中一份子.實屬不公平.
閣下有否親眼見到本人拍攝,親眼見到本人拍攝之距離呢!?
我想一定沒有!因我拍攝當日只有我一人!!更不是閣下所提及之日期時間!!鳥兒拍得大,並不代表拍攝者一定要走得近!!這點我想不用加以說明!!大部份鳥攝的愛好者,都是熱愛雀鳥,喜歡雀鳥之仕!絕不會做出傷害或影響鳥兒安居生活之行為.
希望閣下請不要用有色眼鏡去看待鳥攝人仕,將一群愛鳥之仕當成生態罪犯!!
反之在我拍攝當日,眼見有數名村民,走到塘邊,探身出外觀看鳥巢幼鳥.還說幼鳥大了很多.我想他們之行為遠比攝影人仕更加滋擾.

令希望閣下能移除本人相片之連結.不要在不知情下,對本人作出不公平之評論!!謝謝!!
(本人文筆較差,如有冒犯.敬請見諒)

Author: james10 Time: 13/06/2010 19:21

Pasha, I do not think lkatherine intended to point fingers to any particular photographers.

If you really think that you did not disturb the bird, you can just calmly say so.

Honestly, I think that the villagers are actually more caring to the drongo than the photographers - as you have pointed out they cared for the growth of the chicks.

There is no need to become all defensive at such a small issue - people will only become even more suspicious of you if you do.

Author: cwho Time: 13/06/2010 19:52

絕對認同大家對雀鳥的關愛, 絕對同意拍攝雀鳥時應保持距離, 特別是對鳥巢的觀察及拍攝, 更應加倍小心. 我今日都有去睇過, 情況實在是令人擔心及前所未見, 有震撼感! 一大群攝友及器材靠得如此這麼近, 二~三米的距離, 開始時都覺得太過份, 但觀察短時間後, 發覺那對黑卷尾好像已明白這堆人對牠們一家沒攻擊性, 不停地來回餵養幼鳥, 還會站到後面電燈柱後觀看這群攝友. 人怕出名豬怕肥, 這巢黑巻尾現在已名聞本港, 今日所見, 已有很多拍友(從外表看應不是有經驗的觀鳥人士)來湊熱鬧, 希望這對黑巻尾能支持下去吧! 但有一樣更要擔心的, 便是幼鳥很快要學飛, 巢下便是水, 不知能否拉片安全網, 否則真是要上天保祐, 幼鳥自己爭氣, 千萬不要掉出巢啊!

Author: Sze Time: 13/06/2010 23:59

Katherine! 不用 feel sorry! 係個個場面多一個人加入只會多一個人俾佢鬧，但絕不會對件事有任何正面的改變，因為佢一開始的表現已經告訴我，她是不會聆聽我任何的說話，只是我任性地想試下有沒有神蹟出現吧！所以真的不用介意，你的做法是明智的！

pasha! 我想 katherine 沒有意思指責任何個別人士，
或指責鳥攝人士是生態罪犯，
她只是隨便在網上找到一些那巢黑卷尾照片給大家看看，
並希望有使用這些forum的朋友幫忙在這些forum
提出近攝鳥巢會帶來的問題！
如果你沒有傷害那巢幼鳥，你可以在這裡說明就可以，
大家會明白的！不用擔心大家會以有色眼鏡去看你！

另外，我有些觀點想跟大家再分享一下。

對於怎樣的距離是遠，怎樣算近，其實是很虛無，沒有劃一準則。
打些比喻，有雀鳥在我5米前，對於我來說我覺得已是很近，但有些朋友可能仍然覺得很遠，未夠近。有其他動物或人進入5米的距離，對於習慣跟人生活的麻雀來說，牠可能仍覺得很遠，牠可能不會理會，甚至走來向人討吃。但對於繁殖中的黑翅長腳鷸來說，牠可能以箭速飛出來打退敵人。

懂飛的非繁殖中的成鳥覺得被騷擾的話，牠可以選擇飛走。但對於繁殖中的成鳥，巢、蛋跟幼鳥可是牠們的命根，如非必要牠們大都不會棄巢，而是拼命保護他們的巢、蛋及幼鳥。但是要牠們長時間處於擔驚受怕，長時間處於戒備狀態，如果是真的關心鳥兒的朋友，又於心何忍？

對於怎樣才算是傷害？又是另一個很虛無，沒有劃一準則的問題。
又打些比喻，如果捉了那些鳥或蛋去吃，或是殺死了那些鳥，打破那些蛋，我想大家都會認同，這是「傷害」，這些是很具體的，大家都一致認同的傷害！但有時傷害不一定是具體的，又不是大家一致認同的。就像鳥巢的攝影活動，一個人站得遠遠的（如：10米外，或是隔了一條水道），靜靜的不動，問題可能不大。但如果人數增至5個，距離減至5米，我覺得已經會有問題，雖然未造成傷害，卻有一定的影響，但有些朋友可能仍覺得沒有問題的。當人數增至20人，距離保持5米，覺得有問題的朋友可能又會多些。但大家應該可以估計到當有一個朋友知道巢位後，半日後可能已經會增至20人或以上知道，數日後可能已增至過百人，甚至幾百人知道。這幾百人可能不會全部前往，但如果只要有50-100人站在那兒圍拍那巢時，大家又覺得如何呢？但最重要的問題並不應該著眼於「我們」覺得／爭辯這有沒有問題，而是鳥兒覺得有沒有問題，因為受害者是牠們。如果親鳥一直肯繼續餵鳥的話，那是否就代表圍觀的人數可以繼續增加下去，直至牠忍受不了而棄巢離去嗎？我們真的有需要去「找出」這個極限嗎？

有些朋友可能會覺得我多慮了，因為錦田的斑斑不是很好嗎？但我想說是斑斑的巢是在樹上的，只要大家不爬上樹，又如果斑斑不喜歡的牠仍可以選擇跳到樹上較高的位置，地理上牠仍有選擇的空間，但這次黑卷尾巢的位置是伸手可及的，是沒路可逃的。馬路對面的電燈柱及巢位的樹頂就是親鳥唯一一個又可看守鳥巢，又可以退開少許的地方。在孵蛋初期，牠們是會一驚就飛到對面的魚塘，並超過15分鐘都不會回巢的，我想只是因為去到孵蛋後期及幼鳥出世了，親鳥不能離巢太遠及太久，而被迫要留守在巢附近吧！而且初出生的雛鳥因為沒有太多脂肪，而且還未長出毛，所以是很易凍死及餓死的，親鳥如果不「密集式」餵食，以最短時間餵大雛鳥的話，如果萬一又遇上大雷雨，氣溫下降，為了保護雛鳥親鳥又不能出外找吃的話，小黑卷尾一定會兇多吉少！

另外，pasha提及的村民問題，我想說的，村民在那兒長期生活及活動，鳥兒習慣了跟他們生活，是需要一段不短的日子去適應的，鳥兒是認得他們的，是相信他們不會傷害牠們才會選擇在這裡築巢。而這份信任不是短短一兩個小時，或一兩次探望可以建立到的。就如我有時去到一些我沒有到過的村落去觀察家燕餵養幼鳥時，親鳥也會因為害怕我而不敢回巢餵食，牠會站在遠處監視我，直至我一離開牠們就會立即返巢餵食。此外，我也試過觀察一巢八哥，我雖然躲在樹下，但牠們仍知道我的存在，而咬著毛蟲站在樹頂不肯回巢，跟我對峙了約10分鐘，最後是我放棄了，因我怕餓壞幼鳥。我想說的是「村民走到塘邊探身出外觀看鳥巢幼鳥」不一定比攝影人士帶來更大的干擾，因為村民是鳥兒的鄰居，而我們其他非村民都只是「村外的陌生人」，親民如家燕，八哥都有如此戒心，那何妨是一向怕人的黑卷尾？

說到這裡，我想一定有朋友說：「你憑什麼肯定攝影人士會影響到牠們？」。是的！我沒有辦法跟黑卷尾用言語溝通，詢問牠是否害怕。我是基於我這幾年的巡巢及觀鳥經驗，再加上之前兩次對牠們的觀察而作出大膽的推測。可是，我想我這個推測對牠們一定是有利而沒有害，因為我想沒有鳥兒會「很喜歡」給人觀察牠的鳥巢吧！而唯一的壞處就只是累了大家沒有機會影「爆框相」吧！

我沒有說不容許大家影這個巢，但是我想請大家將心比己，究竟是黑卷尾的幼鳥成功長大緊要些？還是大家影「爆框相」緊要些？愛護雀鳥不是單單貼幾張靚相上forum，不是單單說聲：「我愛雀鳥」就真的是愛。如果大家真的是愛牠們的話，為何不可退後到馬路對面？為何不可見人開始多時，已影到的朋友就讓位給剛到步的朋友，令在場的人數不會過多？一些簡單的「讓步及犧牲」，已可舒緩我們對牠們的壓迫感，問題只在於大家是愛自己的佳作多些，還是愛鳥兒多些吧！

[ Last edited by Sze at 14/06/2010 12:13 ]

Author: cjacky Time: 14/06/2010 00:32

呀SZE, 你影響到佢既利益, 佢實呱呱叫架啦. 想必, 佢當時只想住影, 唔會想到可能發生既壞事情. 自私的人, 實惜口多多.

我知道個巢係邊, 但係我從未係果到停多過一分鐘. 唔想吸引咁多奇人異士. 好可惜, 實在太開陽啦......

而家好多人都要影到100分, 影到又點個心黑色既 !

[ Last edited by cjacky at 14/06/2010 01:16 ]

Author: ajohn Time: 14/06/2010 10:03

I'm sorry that I cannot read the Chinese posts on the thread, so may be slightly behind on the latest discussion.

I have been past the nest on Saturday, Sunday and Monday this week. On each occasion I have stopped and asked people to move back, expaining how their presence may result in disturbance to the nest. Most people have ignored my arguments, although some have pointed out that the birds are still visiting the nest. Nobody has moved away from the nest. I sympathise for Sze, who seems to have been intimidated by the photographers more than I have.

This morning, when I arrived, the adult bird was perched in the tree carrying food. I moved back from the nest and watched from a safe distance (probably 3-4 times the distance of the photographers!) During a period of 5 mintues, the adult remained near the nest, showing itself to be agitated by flicking its tail constantly. After 5 minutes, it actually flew away from the nest, and I think ate the food itself rather than feeding the chicks. To me, this is clear evidence that the photographers are indeed causing too much disturbance, and are risking the success of the nest. I pointed this out to the photographers, and pointed out that their actions are probably illegal (as explained by Mike above). Nobody moved.

I have now reported the case to AFCD in the hope that they may be able to take some action.

To make matters more frustrating, I personally find that the photos linked to by Katherine are not aesthetically pleasing anyway, with the subject far too large in the frame, and no context to the nest. The large cameras present should be able to take good photographs from a greater distance, and therefore not cause disturbance to the bird. Of course, at the moment I do not know who any of the photographers are, and I do not intend to point fingers in this post. I hope any members of the HKBWS would have more sense than to cause this disturbance to a wild bird, and as Katherine has pointed out there are no photos posted on this website In my opinion, it does not seem appropriate for anyone who is intentionally causing such disturbance to be a member of the bird watching society or to be allowed access into a sensitive wildlife reserve such as Mai Po.

Author: Tony Time: 14/06/2010 10:48

Agree with what John said!

I visit Mai Po yerterday for survey. Photographers were already arrived before 7:30 in the morning and a group of 10 photographers. I don't know what happened originally until I saw the nest. I was standing aside and looking at them for 10 minute but they keep aggregate next to the nest. You can just hear the shutter sound once the Black Drongo feed the chicks.

Most photographers look unfamiliar to me, not those who used to be behaved proper. Although it is not the first case for taking photo for nesting bird in HK (like the Kam Tin Collar Scops Owl). But this time, it is too over to stand that close to the them.
Even they claim the bird did come back to feed. But it is different to what "it used to be".
During the survey in Long Velley, I found breeding birds (Black collared Starling and White-shoulder Starling) find food to feed chicks very frequently. The parents back to them nest alternately every 1-2 minutes. But it did not happen to what I observed for this Drongo.

The parent definitely looks alert each visit coming back to the nest. It stood aside first and take more than 30 seconds before getting back the nest. It is a symptom of disturbance. I hope everyone can do for the sake of the birds. It is not easy to rear three nestlings and some of them may even die as well.........

What we act are educating our next generation and the public. Think twice before we act!

[ Last edited by Tony at 14/06/2010 10:49 ]

Author: 觀鳥新丁 Time: 14/06/2010 13:45

漁護署能處理嗎? 攝影人仕是不會聽的? 我有此經驗? 結果, 都係用官用處理.

Author: Sze Time: 14/06/2010 15:55

Sorry John! Since my poor English, I don't know how to translate all my Chinese content into English! I just share some my little opinion and suggestion!

It will be a BIG HELP if anyone can simply translate some point of my Chinese content into English for John! Many Thousand THANKS!

Author: Sze Time: 14/06/2010 16:15

唔好意思!
另外, 再想加少少意見!
有些朋友可能說，咁擔心個巢不如叫AFCD封路啦！　
但我想如果拍攝人數繼續增加的話，
就算AFCD不封路，條路都會多人到村民同車都行唔到！　
我想說的是，有些事，如果大家不自律，除了對雀鳥有影響外，　
對周圍環境及其他市民，特別是村民的日常生活會有很大影響的！
我真係唔想有上次"棉花鴨"的事再次發生啊！
有興趣的可以看看第三期 hkwildlife E-mag，
野生雀鳥的十個苦，最後那頁的後話！

http://www.hkwildlife.net/redirect.php?tid=55796&goto=newpost

Author: ying Time: 14/06/2010 22:50

今早所見，警察到場觀察十分鐘後無任何表示而離開，漁護處其後到場觀察大約二十分鐘，離開前與拍攝人仕閒談，內容為:未發覺現場人仕騷擾鳥巢，亦理解大家因為要拍攝故冇任何理由會騷擾雀鳥，可繼續拍攝。及後一名曾在無任何保護下赤手捉拿錦田班班BB之男子(此乃違法行為，後果可大可小！請勿學習！)帶同一名小孩到場意圖吩咐在場人仕排隊拍攝不果！該男子以報警作要脅！此無知行為當然不能有效，及後此人使出一拍兩散之下策！走到鳥巢最近之處竟然意圖嚇走黑券尾父母兼防碍拍攝人仕！此舉實令人髮指！幸好黑券尾未受其惡行所威嚇，繼續餵飼，其同行小童一見鳥兒飛至，立即舉機拍攝，快門聲響不絶！其快 ; 狠 ; 凖！實在令人為之側目，實久經訓練也！此人惡行持續期間，黑卷尾來回不下十數次！此人見其惡行不得要領，而事實擺在眼前所謂騷擾實屬無稽之談！又見其同行小童長時間暴曬於烈日當空之下，(可憐該小孩其間滴水未沾！)只好如鬥敗公雞垂頭離去，其人離開後黑券尾仍不斷餵飼幼雛，直至下雨券尾始停哺以身護雛！母愛之偉大實感人也！

Author: tmichael Time: 14/06/2010 23:37

Although I have been living and birding in HK for nearly 23 years now I rarely go to Mai Po these days,especially not "out of season", but would just like to underline that John A's comments are carefully weighed and politely phrased. however, they undoubtledly also have the weight of the HK law behind them ("Act now!" Police). These hobbyist photographers it seems are not only causing massive stress to the poor birds in question, but actually breaking the law, which was never framed to protect the birds from them, but nonetheless serves to do so, since their disturbance is the same that the massively less-educated might have provided, say, 30 years ago.

Mike Turnbull

Author: Webcreeper Time: 14/06/2010 23:41

如果有人拍到現塲照片，請貼出來讓大家評評理。

參與拍攝的人請撫心自問：
平日常見的麻雀見人接近要會走開，
你何以可以肯定鳥兒對攝影師真的沒有任何戒心呢？
如果不是要養活雛鳥，黑卷尾絕對不會回巢。
那麼多人圍著一隻小鳥，令牠承受著心理壓力，
拍出來的照片值得公開示人嗎？

Would anyone who has taken photos of the site please post them here,
so that we may see how close they are.

For those who had taken part in the photo-taking:
Even a sparrow would shy away from people.
How can you be so sure that the nesting drongos won't mind your presence?
If the chicks were not there, the Drongos would never return to the nest.
What is the value of photos taken by stressing a small bird?

Author: ying Time: 15/06/2010 00:06

Quote:

Original posted by Webcreeper at 14/06/2010 23:41
如果有人拍到現塲照片，請貼出來讓大家評評理。

參與拍攝的人請撫心自問：
平日常見的麻雀見人接近要會走開，
你何以可以肯定鳥兒對攝影師真的沒有任何戒心呢？
如果不是要養活雛鳥，黑卷尾絕對不會回巢。
那麼多人圍著一隻小 ...

真係要相？

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 00:31

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 00:06

真係要相？

如果是問心無愧的，何需惶恐？
何不拿出證據去證明自己的清白？

Author: sbena Time: 15/06/2010 07:36

Taken yesterday (14 June 2010)

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 10:58

Bena! Thanks for sharing!

Agree with Katherine, some vegetation next to that tree obviously has been "managed"

[ Last edited by Sze at 15/06/2010 11:01 ]

Author: ajohn Time: 15/06/2010 11:13

Here are a couple of low-quality photos from this morning.
When I went past, there were 11 photographers this morning, and 2 more arriving as I left. Some of the people I recognised from both Sunday AND Monday (and possibly also Saturday). I know that AFCD visited the site yesterday, but it seems that nothing will stop these photographers.

The most worrying news was that I could only see 2 chicks begging when one of the adults visited. It is possible there are still 3 chicks and I couldn't see one. When I asked the photographers told me that there are still 3, but even so I am worried about whether one chick has been lost already.

It's interesting to know that other bird watchers have noticed this activity and share my concerns about how close these photographers are to the nest.

[Edit: Second photo remove to prevent causing offence]

[ Last edited by ajohn at 17/06/2010 08:32 ]

Image Attachment: 15-6-10 (1).jpg (15/06/2010 11:13, 24.15 KB) / Download count 1086
http://hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=6787

Author: ying Time: 15/06/2010 11:22

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 00:31

如果是問心無愧的，何需惶恐？
何不拿出證據去證明自己的清白？

我何需惶恐？只因此處道聽途說皆可作凖！此次竟然要相片作證！此為雙重標準也！你要相片公審此人？然！

[ Last edited by ying at 15/06/2010 11:33 ]

Image Attachment: IMG_0044.JPG (15/06/2010 11:22, 181.52 KB) / Download count 709
http://hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=6789

Image Attachment: IMG_0048.JPG (15/06/2010 11:22, 185.81 KB) / Download count 740
http://hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=6790

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 12:44

Ying！先謝過你的環境記錄照，明白亦認同要求人之前也應該先要求自己，你所提及的「赤手捉拿錦田班班BB之男子」（以下簡稱斑斑先生），我想可能因為愛鳥心切而過於激動做了一些可能跟他要求別人做的事不相符的事，這個是斑斑先生日後需要改進的地方。但為公平起見，也敢問Ying你當日是站在什麼位置拍攝黑卷尾巢呢？可否麻煩你也陳述一下呢？

另外，Ying你在回覆17中詳述的都是斑斑先生跟他兒子的行為問題，卻沒有提及其他在場的人士有沒有其他問題，此舉難免令人感覺有點是針對人而不是針對事的討論，特別是你用一個豬頭圖案覆蓋斑斑先生的臉，雖然圖案好可愛，但這個動物圖案難免令人多作其他聯想。如果你是希望大家不要倣效斑斑先生的做法，我想大家已經收到及明白，如果大家是認同你的意見，自會有版友留言支持。但如果你想以陳述斑斑先生的行為以轉移大家的注意力，不集中討論「Avoid disturbance to birds around nests 請勿干擾雀鳥營巢」的話，那我想你似乎是支持「多人一起近攝黑卷尾巢不會對雀鳥帶來影響」，對嗎？又如果你是支持的一方，為了大家能作出準確的討論，可否麻煩你提出其他更切題的論點及論證，例如：「為何你們應為近攝黑卷尾巢不會對雀鳥帶來影響？」又或者「為何你們認為沒有需要增加拍攝者跟鳥巢的距離」等等。

靜待你進一步的意見分享！謝謝！

[ Last edited by Sze at 15/06/2010 13:01 ]

Author: HKBWS Vicky Time: 15/06/2010 14:51

觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則 Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Photography
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=2663&extra=page%3D1

觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則 Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Photography
香港觀鳥會的宗旨，是研究、欣賞和保育本地的鳥類，並且促進鳥友間的交流，分享觀鳥方面的經驗和資訊。
近來在香港觀鳥和拍攝鳥類照片的人愈來愈多，而鳥類對干擾又比較敏感，進行相關活動時需要留意，以免影響雀鳥的正常生活。
為了讓大家認識到應有的操守，本會執行委員會特地制定了以下守則，作為良好行為的模範，供各會員和廣大市民參考。

1.　以鳥為先

無論是觀鳥或拍攝鳥類照片，都要以儘量不影響鳥類的正常活動為原則，避免造成干擾。

　　a.　如果發現雀鳥顯得不安、有規避或其他異常反應，便要馬上停止
　　b.　如果在場拍攝和觀看的人太多，尤其要特別留意
　　c.　不要企圖影響雀鳥的行為，如驚嚇、驅趕或使用誘餌
　　d.　少用閃光燈
　　e.　不要破壞自然環境

2.　保護敏感地點

雀鳥的營巢地點、有海鳥繁殖的小島、稀有鳥種停棲的地點等都特別容易受到干擾，要加倍留意。

　　a.　保持適當距離，避免令雀鳥受到脅逼
　　b.　不要登上有海鳥繁殖的小島
　　c.　不要干擾鳥巢或周圍的植被，以免親鳥棄巢或招來天敵襲擊
　　d.　小心和別人分享敏感地點的位置，不要隨便公開，並向不認識守則的人清楚解釋，以免帶來干擾
　　e.　留意自己的行為，以防招惹好奇的人來干擾

3.　舉報干擾

如果發現有人干擾或傷害雀鳥，在安全情況下宜向他們解釋和勸止。
如果未能阻止，請拍照記錄，並儘快向漁農自然護理署舉報，同時將事件在本會網上論壇報告。

4.　尊重他人

　　a.　避免干擾其他在場觀鳥和拍攝的人，讓大家都可以享受其中的樂趣
　　b.　小心不要破壞當地的設施和農作物

Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Bird Photography
The objective of HKBWS is to promote the study, appreciation and conservation of birds in Hong Kong.  In addition, the Society also facilitates the exchange of experience and information related to birdwatching.  In recent years, more and more people in Hong Kong become interested in birdwatching and bird photography.  Since birds are sensitive to disturbance, special care is required to avoid bringing disturbance to their lives.  In order to provide a model for good practices in birdwatching and bird photography, the Society’s Executive Committee has drawn up the following code.  It is intended to be a reference for both HKBWS members and the general public.

1.　The Welfare of Birds Comes First

Birdwatching and bird photography should be carried out with minimum interference to the birds. Disturbance must be avoided as far as possible.
　　a.　Stop if the birds appear disturbed, begin to move away or exhibit other abnormal reaction
　　b.　Exercise additional precautions when the activity is undertaken with a large group of people
　　c.　Do not attempt to influence the behaviour of birds, e.g. by flushing, chasing or baiting
　　d.　Use flash only sparingly
　　e.　Do not damage the natural environment

2.  Protect Sensitive Sites

Sites such as nests, seabird colonies and the roost of rarities are particularly vulnerable. Take extra care to minimize disturbance.

　　a.　Keep a suitable distance to avoid stressing the birds
　　b.　Do not land on islands with breeding colonies
　　c.　Do not disturb nests and their surrounding vegetation, or the nest could be abandoned or become exposed to predators
　　d.　Share information about the sites with discretion and do not reveal it casually in public.  Explain clearly to those who may not understand the Code, to avoid bringing disturbance to the site
　　e.　Beware that your actions may attract unwanted attention and hence disturbance to the site

3.　Report Disturbances

If you find people disturbing or causing harm to birds, advise against the act when it is safe to do so.  If they cannot be stopped, take photos and report to the AFCD as soon as possible.  Post a report at the Society’s online Forum.

4.　Respect Others

　　a.　Share the fun – avoid disturbing other birdwatchers or photographers on site.
　　b.　Take care not to damage facilities or crops at the site.

Author: 老抽 Time: 15/06/2010 15:33

容我弱弱的问一句
鸟巢建得那么近路边
是否有其他原因ing?
比如说......是为了不被麻鹰之类的猛禽攻击,而选择更靠近人类而建呢?
有这个可能吗?

Author: edwardkwong Time: 15/06/2010 15:48

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 14/06/2010 22:50
今早所見，警察到場觀察十分鐘後無任何表示而離開，漁護處其後到場觀察大約二十分鐘，離開前與拍攝人仕閒談，內容為:未發覺現場人仕騷擾鳥巢，亦理解大家因為要拍攝故冇任何理由會騷擾雀鳥，可繼續拍攝。及後一名曾在無任何保 ...

如ying 師兄/師姊所說的一樣 :[ 千真萬確, 如實報導 ]

斑斑先生當日行為真係過於偏激(有可能係愛鳥心切,但始終噤大個人,還為人師表....就有點

)

其實當天如ying圖片一樣, 眾人就如站在或坐在{斑斑先生的兒子舉機拍攝黑卷尾巢}的附近不遠!!

可惜當日斑斑先生的所謂的勸喻和表達真的沒有好好技巧[如果溫和一點的話，相信效果會好很多很多,可能就不會發生這樣無謂的爭論]

當日由於斑斑先生見報警作要脅不果後, 竟然最後採取一拍倆散, 站在最近黑卷尾巢的位 (反面教材, 大家不要學)
當在場的人士曾要求想安靜拍攝和勸喻斑斑先生不要站在黑卷尾巢的最近, (個程中,有些攝友的器材被接觸引來不滿),不過, 當然斑斑先生不妥協啦!

爭論中, 斑斑先生還親口認自己所作的行為是無賴鬥氣行為, 目的一來阻住你們影, 二來可能想試吓呢個距離對黑券尾餵飼有冇影響(事實上, 這段持續期間，黑卷尾真係來回好多次好多次！小弟選擇相信這距離拍攝不會有太大問題, 不過大要小心太近趺落水)

還有很多師兄可以作証, 大家可發表一下, 希望下次不會有同樣事情再發生啦!

[ Last edited by edwardkwong at 15/06/2010 15:50 ]

Author: wcaptain Time: 15/06/2010 15:50

請問拍友當時是否保持低聲談話，還是高談闊論？有時繁殖雀鳥也怕人聲。

黑卷尾天生膽大，例如主動攻擊飛過麻鷹。但不代表可容忍十多個壯漢在身邊坐定定看著自己的整個生仔過程。雀鳥的保護工作還是比拍鳥重要。拍鳥者還是要自律。

How about noise generated by the photographers? Sometimes breeding birds also threatened by human noise.

Black Drongo can be very aggressive, e.g. they attack pass-by Black Kites. But it does not imply that they can accept several big guys sitting nearby and staring their whole breeding process.

Priority should always be given to protection of birds. Self-discipline is important.

Author: edwardkwong Time: 15/06/2010 16:23

Quote:

Original posted by cwho at 13/06/2010 19:52
絕對認同大家對雀鳥的關愛, 絕對同意拍攝雀鳥時應保持距離, 特別是對鳥巢的觀察及拍攝, 更應加倍小心. 我今日都有去睇過, 情況實在是令人擔心及前所未見, 有震撼感! 一大群攝友及器材靠得如此這麼近, 二~三米的距離, ...

sorry!!不是說師兄說謊, 不過有二~三米的距離咁近???, 我見有些師兄都用 600mm /f4 vr 冇tube 至少要5m 啦??? 我估都有6m 左右

[ Last edited by edwardkwong at 15/06/2010 16:25 ]

Author: cwchan Time: 15/06/2010 16:35

“ The welfare of the subject is more important than the photograph. “ This is the spirit of Nature photographers, RPS.

The Nature Group of The Royal Photographic Society, UK, has produced a set of Cod of Practice for the members to follow.

The following is extracted for reference,

“Photography should not be undertaken if it puts the subject at risk. Risk to the subject, in this context, means risk of disturbance, physical damage, causing anxiety, consequential predation, and lessened reproductive success.”

For birds at the nest. there is also strict control for the photographers to follow .

For details, please click the following path to see,
http://www.rpsnaturegroup.com/page7.htm

There is absolutely no contradiction between a genuine Nature photographers and bird watchers.

[ Last edited by cwchan at 15/06/2010 16:56 ]

Author: edwardkwong Time: 15/06/2010 16:45

Quote:

Original posted by wcaptain at 15/06/2010 15:50
請問拍友當時是否保持低聲談話，還是高談闊論？有時繁殖雀鳥也怕人聲。

黑卷尾天生膽大，例如主動攻擊飛過麻鷹。但不代表可容忍十多個壯漢在身邊坐定定看著自己的整個生仔過程。雀鳥的保護工作還是比拍鳥重要。拍鳥者還是 ...

小弟11:30am到, 師兄們一直都保持低聲談話, 直至到斑斑先生來到

Author: edwardkwong Time: 15/06/2010 16:57

Quote:

Original posted by 老抽 at 15/06/2010 15:33
容我弱弱的问一句
鸟巢建得那么近路边
是否有其他原因ing?
比如说......是为了不被麻鹰之类的猛禽攻击,而选择更靠近人类而建呢?
有这个可能吗? ...

咩都有可能, 我們又不能代替那黑券尾說話, 點解呢隻噤唔驚人, 其他又噤驚人, 其實大家都係估吓估吓

............(不扮專家

)

Author: stephenlwb8 Time: 15/06/2010 17:19

May be I am a bit naive...common sense to me if a group of people pointing their telelens closely towards your home for hours and speaking loudly (if this is the case), how do you feel ?

May be some Ching will enjoy it but definitely not me

[ Last edited by stephenlwb8 at 15/06/2010 17:22 ]

Author: pasha Time: 15/06/2010 17:48

Quote:

原帖由 wcaptain 於 15/06/2010 15:50 發表
請問拍友當時是否保持低聲談話，還是高談闊論？有時繁殖雀鳥也怕人聲。

黑卷尾天生膽大，例如主動攻擊飛過麻鷹。但不代表可容忍十多個壯漢在身邊坐定定看著自己的整個生仔過程。雀鳥的保護工作還是比拍鳥重要。拍鳥者還是 ...

其實本人下午才到達，到達時眼見一眾攝影人仕，都是坐在相片中的位置，靜靜在守候！並沒有作出太大的聲響。直到斑斑先生之出現！

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 20:21

各位! 這位先生的處理手法有問題, 各位已經說過, 大家亦已清楚，各位可以說他今次的處理手法是一個反面教材，他的行為令到他變得沒有說服力，我沒有異議。但我想問是否因為他的處理手法有問題，大家就可以近攝鳥巢呢？如果你覺得近攝鳥巢是沒有問題的話，我想大家樂意細看各位的意見，但請不要不停只是將討論重覆又重覆的放在這位先生的身上，"他的問題" 並不是一個支持大家近攝鳥巢，或是令我們放棄要求大家 "增加拍攝者跟鳥巢距離" 的理據，這點希望,也請各位留意！

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 20:30

Quote:

Original posted by 老抽 at 15/06/2010 15:33
容我弱弱的问一句
鸟巢建得那么近路边
是否有其他原因ing?
比如说......是为了不被麻鹰之类的猛禽攻击,而选择更靠近人类而建呢?
有这个可能吗? ...

可不知道! 可能是, 但也可能是其他原因!
雀鳥選擇築巢的地方, 一定有其原因, 只是我們未能理解!
但任何原因也好, 也不代表我們可以過份干擾其生活!

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 20:52

今日收到朋友的消息,話AFCD昨日安裝的告示牌,今日已被拆毀了,
至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!

Author: ying Time: 15/06/2010 21:09

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 20:21
各位! 這位先生的處理手法有問題, 各位已經說過, 大家亦已清楚，各位可以說他今次的處理手法是一個反面教材，他的行為令到他變得沒有說服力，我沒有異議。但我想問是否因為他的處理手法有問題，大家就可以近攝鳥巢呢？如果你覺 ...

版友留言支持作証不對？不能提及？

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 21:20

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 21:09

版友留言支持作証不對？不能提及？

不是不能提及! 我是說:
"他的問題" 並不是一個支持大家近攝鳥巢，
或是令我們放棄要求大家 "增加拍攝者跟鳥巢距離" 的理據，
這點希望,也請各位留意！

大家都是成年人, 佢既問題佢自己要承擔返,
但同樣大家既問題亦要自己承擔返,
請不要只是用人地都做得差來做藉口!
人地做得差, 不代表大家可以跟佢一齊差, 甚至更差!
如果你覺得自己做得對,沒問題的話,
請講出更多切題的論點及證據,
而不是不停將討論重點轉移到聲討某人大行動!
這不是一個健康的討論!

Author: kkitty Time: 15/06/2010 21:27

今日到過現場 (約中午時份), AFCD 的告示牌尚在.

Author: Beetle Time: 15/06/2010 22:08

Quote:

Original posted by kkitty at 15/06/2010 21:27
今日到過現場 (約中午時份), AFCD 的告示牌尚在.

有興趣知道告示的內容及位置等有關資料!想看一看AFCD對此事的做法!
有朋友有告示的相片或記得大概的文字嗎?

Author: ying Time: 15/06/2010 22:11

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 12:44
Ying！先謝過你的環境記錄照，明白亦認同要求人之前也應該先要求自己，你所提及的「赤手捉拿錦田班班BB之男子」（以下簡稱斑斑先生），我想可能因為愛鳥心切而過於激動做了一些可能跟他要求別人做的事不相符的事，這個是斑斑先生日 ...

輕輕一句 '班班先生日後改進'就不經意帶走錯誤行為，老朋也！追查我之位置？告知閣下亦無不可，在下所處位置，可算最後一個，但亦不外乎比師兄們後一點而矣，經已危坐馬路！再後就會横屍米埔！在場本就氣氛融洽，亦聽聞有鳥攝入仕乃來自深圳，鳥哺人攝，只聞失打聲，未見擾巢人，當惡人到位！方起爭執！其間有師兄勞氣，亦由其他師兄勸服，至於論及小孩 ; 是覺實在無辜，小兒何罪？竟受曝日煎熬之苦！惻隱之心，人皆有之！錯乎？而所書之事，何以與題目無關？正正是 '來訴擾巢者最是擾巢人'！合乎題之原意，因何不可？更甚者閣下相片挑骨？然！先問 ajohn 所登之相片，無遮無掩！相片中師兄人權何在！！！外國月亮圓乎？專家位高不敢訴？再述豬頭圖案 ; 與班班先生之名何異？班班較可觀乎？聯想之罪從何說！閣下欲加之罪 ; 何患無詞！要誣人！先閱已！至乎距離問題 ; 公婆各說，現距六米覺近？退後至何處為合，煩請閣下賜教。與其誣吾轉移視線！(惡人先告狀！)不如先大義滅親！以正視聽！方能服衆！

[ Last edited by ying at 15/06/2010 22:28 ]

Author: HFCheung Time: 15/06/2010 22:14

剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩子打氣，希望牠們成功離巢。
2，大家都在認真學習欣賞這鳥的行為，包括做一些照片/錄像的記錄。

有了這些共通點，我覺大家可以好好協商，定出雙方可以接受的行為規範，我覺得很多資深生態攝影者比我更懂鳥類行為，我希望聽聽他/她們的看法及建議。

張浩輝

Author: kkitty Time: 15/06/2010 22:15

Quote:

Original posted by Beetle at 15/06/2010 22:08

有興趣知道告示的內容及位置等有關資料!想看一看AFCD對此事的做法!
有朋友有告示的相片或記得大概的文字嗎?

我今日去, 不是為了影相, 所以冇帶相機.

至於位置, 向塘方向, 樹前左手面約 1-2 m.

內容 (大慨啦): 不要搔擾鳥巢
(exactly 唔記得了)

Author: ying Time: 15/06/2010 22:17

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 15/06/2010 22:14
剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩 ...

立論中肯！

Author: ying Time: 15/06/2010 22:22

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 20:52
今日收到朋友的消息,話AFCD昨日安裝的告示牌,今日已被拆毀了,
至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!

道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

Author: kkitty Time: 15/06/2010 22:24

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 22:22

道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

咁又未必喎. 之後有邊人 d 到過, 邊個知 ?

Author: Webcreeper Time: 15/06/2010 22:37

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 22:22
道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

未核實消息來源，
更不該妄下判斷。

Author: csimon Time: 15/06/2010 22:54

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 15/06/2010 22:14
剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩子打氣，希望牠們成功離巢。
2，大家都在認真學習欣賞這鳥的行為，包括做一些照片/錄像的記錄。

有了這些共通點，我覺大家可以好好協商，定出雙方可以接受的行為規範，我覺得很多資深生態攝影者比我更懂鳥類行為，我希望聽聽他/她們的看法及建議。

張浩輝

見主席先生所言，即本帖中 #27 由本會雀鳥專家們所制定的 [觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則] 全是空談，更需與鳥類攝影人仕好好協商，再定出雙方可以接受的行為規範 ..!
[雀鳥專家] 對雀鳥的知識不如 [鳥類攝影人仕]...? 可悲 ...

Author: Sze Time: 15/06/2010 23:09

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 22:22

道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

是的! 所以我說是聽朋友說!
但那是一個可信的朋友說的, 我選擇相信是我對朋友的信任,
只是沒有詳細查詢時間, 告示牌可能被拆毀, AFCD知道後再行修理!

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 00:19 ]

Author: Beetle Time: 15/06/2010 23:10

Quote:

Original posted by csimon at 15/06/2010 22:54

見主席先生所言，即本帖中 #27 由本會雀鳥專家們所制定的 [觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則] 全是空談，更需與鳥類攝影人仕好好協商，再定出雙方可以接受的行為規範 ..!
[雀鳥專家] 對雀鳥的知識不如 [鳥類攝影人仕]...? 可悲 ... ...

「雀鳥專家」不代表對鳥類全盤皆精,正如大學海洋生態教授也未必能夠辨認陸上植物。研究鳥類遷徙的專家也未必精通鳥類繁殖。何況不同品種雀鳥在不同地方行為也不盡相同!
所以這時候才要多方面的智識! 我想亦是主席希望多方面表達意見之原因!
至於誰是誰非, 根本沒有一個絕對的答案, 在我看來, 只要大家也是由愛鳥出發而不是為照片出發, 為何不能理解持不同意見的人? 科學上用實證推翻前人論點之事常有!經過此事(黑卷尾完成繁殖)後再作定論也非不智! 可是討論的角度不應是針鋒相對!
可是現在明顯有人是因為為了一輯照片到現場久候攝影, 我不能說他們沒有愛鳥之心, 不過大概為了拍照的心較愛鳥多!

Author: 大頭民 Time: 15/06/2010 23:44

本人於14-06-2010 07:00 和一位朋友到場是當日第一批到達的  約08:00已有約十多人到當中包括有三位由深圳來的人仕一直到約10:00 黑卷尾已有約十次餵B 由於本人尚未食早餐所以離開再於約14:00返回現場約15:00本人見到
<班班先生>和一位小友朋到場因為他於錦田赤手捉班B上樹我亦在場親眼看到他所以認得佢
約數分鐘他就走到我們身邊想和我們理論未幾他就話要報警和他理論的人就話魚農處和警員都先後到過場他們都話無問題  之後<班班先生> 就話 (你地有權係度我都有權企係前邊) 之後佢就企係我地相機之前面擋位部份相機之前面
其間隻黑卷尾也有幾次餵B 而和<班班先生> 一齊來的小友朋也舉起相機影黑卷尾之後他逗留了約30分鐘就走了

最後當日本人只有長鏡所以無影相  所有敍述如實報道

Author: Webcreeper Time: 15/06/2010 23:55

哈！想起益力多告白，
起初有人講啲唔講啲，最後至真相大白。

Author: Sze Time: 16/06/2010 00:20

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 23:09

是的! 所以我說是聽朋友說!
但那是一個可信的朋友說的, 我選擇相信是我對朋友的信任,
只是沒有詳細查詢時間, 告示牌可能被拆毀, AFCD知道後再行修理! ...

剛剛跟朋友confirm返,個告示牌是早上被拆毀!
所以kkitty中午見個個應該是AFCD知道後新加返的!

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 00:21 ]

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 00:25

Quote:

原帖由 Webcreeper 於 15/06/2010 22:37 發表

未核實消息來源，
更不該妄下判斷。

閣下呢？還不是人云亦云！有何貢獻？

[ 本帖最後由 ying 於 16/06/2010 00:33 編輯 ]

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 00:27

Quote:

原帖由 Webcreeper 於 15/06/2010 23:55 發表
哈！想起益力多告白，
起初有人講啲唔講啲，最後至真相大白。

閣下身處現場？如何得知真相？

Author: Sze Time: 16/06/2010 00:33

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 22:11

輕輕一句 '班班先生日後改進'就不經意帶走錯誤行為，老朋也！追查我之位置？告知閣下亦無不可，在下所處位置，可算最後一個，但亦不外乎比師兄們後一點而矣，經已危坐馬路！再後就會横屍米埔！在場本就氣氛融洽，亦聽聞有鳥攝入仕乃來自深圳，鳥哺人攝，只聞失打聲，未見擾巢人，當惡人到位！方起爭執！其間有師兄勞氣，亦由其他師兄勸服，至於論及小孩 ; 是覺實在無辜，小兒何罪？竟受曝日煎熬之苦！惻隱之心，人皆有之！錯乎？而所書之事，何以與題目無關？正正是 '來訴擾巢者最是擾巢人'！合乎題之原意，因何不可？更甚者閣下相片挑骨？然！先問 ajohn 所登之相片，無遮無掩！相片中師兄人權何在！！！外國月亮圓乎？專家位高不敢訴？再述豬頭圖案 ; 與班班先生之名何異？班班較可觀乎？聯想之罪從何說！閣下欲加之罪 ; 何患無詞！要誣人！先閱已！至乎距離問題 ; 公婆各說，現距六米覺近？退後至何處為合，煩請閣下賜教。與其誣吾轉移視線！(惡人先告狀！)不如先大義滅親！以正視聽！方能服衆！

做錯事！不是日後改進，難道要以死謝罪？還是你想他重蹈覆轍？
道聽途說班班先生因工事離開了香港，如果要回覆解釋，要道歉，要承擔責任，
我想也要等他回港才可以。我想你的目的也只是要看見別人出來認罪才安心吧！
那就要煩請你耐心地等待多數天吧！

閣下所處位置，在師兄們後一點而矣，經已危坐馬路，再後就會横屍米埔！既然危險至此，為何不選擇退到馬路另一面安全的地方，而依然堅守危險之地？箇中原因，願聞其詳！

ajohn只是生態專家，不代表他知曉世間所有事情，他很少張貼相片，忽略了將人面淡化，只是不知者不罪，閣下大可善意用英文向ajohn提出。ajohn是看不懂中文而你用中文指責他又是否有欠公平？而且他的相片是在公眾地方拍攝，如師兄們不喜歡上鏡的大可選擇避開，或將面望向另一邊。

用「斑斑先生」作代名詞是根據閣下的回覆#17中，所提及的相關資料而選擇一個大家都會明白所談是何人而又較簡短的代名詞。豬頭圖案與斑斑的分別，我想閣下心知肚明，否則為何閣下不選擇用「斑斑」圖案取代豬頭圖案呢？

距離問題，我在回覆#10已表達過我的意見，煩請閣下再次細閱，如閣下想問我個人意見，我會說越遠越好，特別是人數眾多的時候。

若閣下不是欲轉移視線的話，那為何我多次希望大家（包括閣下）提出支持大家近攝鳥巢的理據後，閣下又不嘗試回覆我的問題呢？而只是針著於要「斑斑先生」先生認罪呢？為何兩個討論不能同時回答呢？

Author: Webcreeper Time: 16/06/2010 00:40

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 16/06/2010 00:27
閣下身處現場？如何得知真相？

公道自在人心，
憑各人之言行態度當可知一二，
多言未必等於有理，
質疑可能反映心虛。

誰是誰非，各位看官自行判斷。

Author: kyshum Time: 16/06/2010 00:51

我無去過現場, 今日睇到各位的現場實照, 其實無我幾日前想像中咁近...
話說回來, 近或遠好難有一個劃一界線, 有些鳥種比較怕人, 有些鳥種無咁怕, 就算相同鳥種, 每個個體都會有分別, 這隻黑卷尾能忍耐, 不表示另一隻黑卷尾可以.
但我們不是在做一些試探最近底線的試驗, 如果比我地試到那一刻已經太遲, 如果大家內心深處係真係為隻鳥好的話, 希望都會比隻鳥多一些空間而不希望觸到底線.

自問都是鳥攝人, 都愛拍下美態來欣賞, 這些特別的情況如果我在場都一定會拍, 但不會留守很久, 不會由朝等到黑.

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 00:52

Quote:

Original posted by 大頭民 at 15/06/2010 23:44
本人於14-06-2010 07:00 和一位朋友到場是當日第一批到達的約08:00已有約十多人到當中包括有三位由深圳來的人仕一直到約10:00 黑卷尾已有約十次餵B 由於本人尚未食早餐所以離開再於約14:00返回現場約15:00本 ...

師兄，班班先生開始時間應該由 PM 14:18 企到 PM 15:10。

Author: 大頭民 Time: 16/06/2010 00:58

Quote:

原帖由 ying 於 16/06/2010 00:52 發表

師兄，班班先生開始時間應該由 PM 14:18 企到 PM 15:10。

多謝師兄提醒時間小弟只是大約

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 01:05

Quote:

原帖由 Sze 於 16/06/2010 00:20 發表

剛剛跟朋友confirm返,個告示牌是早上被拆毀!
所以kkitty中午見個個應該是AFCD知道後新加返的!

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 00:21 ]

其實妳應該把事情攪清楚先好出post講,只是靠聽朋友說就出以下嘅post,好似唔係幾好喎~~

今日收到朋友的消息,話AFCD昨日安裝的告示牌,今日已被拆毀了,
至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!

單看妳的post,就好有引導成份!
好似對別人不公喎!!
到有人見到個牌喺到,妳又話應該是AFCD知道後新加的~~
真係好難令人信妳喎!!

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 01:23

Quote:

Original posted by Webcreeper at 16/06/2010 00:40

公道自在人心，
憑各人之言行態度當可知一二，
多言未必等於有理，
質疑可能反映心虛。

誰是誰非，各位看官自行判斷。

上述之言，十分贊同。

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 01:24

Quote:

原帖由 Webcreeper 於 15/06/2010 22:37 發表

未核實消息來源，
更不該妄下判斷。

咁等我話你知啦!!個牌好地地喺到!!
自己睇啦!!.......攪到我要夜媽媽要行過去睇吓個牌有無俾人又整走!!

[ 本帖最後由 pasha 於 16/06/2010 01:26 編輯 ]

Image Attachment: P1010991.JPG (16/06/2010 01:24, 188.53 KB) / Download count 646
http://hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=6794

Image Attachment: P1010992.JPG (16/06/2010 01:24, 190.34 KB) / Download count 556
http://hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=6795

Author: Sze Time: 16/06/2010 01:26

Quote:

Original posted by pasha at 16/06/2010 01:05

其實妳應該把事情攪清楚先好出post講,只是靠聽朋友說就出以下嘅post,好似唔係幾好喎~~

今日收到朋友的消息,話AFCD昨日安裝的告示牌,今日已被拆毀了,
至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!

單看妳的post,就好有引導成份!
好似對別人不公喎!!
到有人見到個牌喺到,妳又話應該是AFCD知道後新加的~~
真係好難令人信妳喎!!

這件事我沒有要求大家完全相信我，所以我將事情也說得好保留！
告示牌被拆毀了，有可能係有人蓄意所為，有可能係因為其他原因！
如果要完全肯定件事，除非是在那兒安放24小時閉路電視！

朋友見到個牌毀壞左係事實，因為有人證！
但如果要查清楚成個過程的，則要找到目睹整個案發過程的人才可。
如果為了一個告示牌被毀而要求警方協助調查似乎小題大造了一點！
所以我只是想看看有沒有版友知道及目睹整個案發過程，
又或者大家可以幫忙留意！

Author: Sze Time: 16/06/2010 01:37

Quote:

Original posted by pasha at 16/06/2010 01:24

咁等我話你知啦!!個牌好地地喺到!!
自己睇啦!!.......攪到我要夜媽媽要行過去睇吓個牌有無俾人又整走!!

[ 本帖最後由 pasha 於 16/06/2010 01:26 編輯 ]

吓? 你咁夜行去睇下個牌有無事?
辛苦晒你呀! Sorry! Sorry!

個牌呢D小事來吧! 咁夜出去危險啊!
下次等日間先去睇啦! 擔心你的安全啊!

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 01:39 ]

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 01:42

Quote:

原帖由 Sze 於 16/06/2010 01:37 發表

吓? 你咁夜行去睇下個牌有無事?
辛苦晒你呀! Sorry! Sorry!

行過去好近姐!!
唔駛同我講sorry!!

要講就講俾啲因為妳發放未經証實嘅消息而影响嘅朋友啦!!

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 02:11

Quote:

原帖由 HFCheung 於 15/06/2010 22:14 發表
剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩 ...

非常中肯!

Author: Sze Time: 16/06/2010 02:11

Quote:

Original posted by pasha at 16/06/2010 01:42

行過去好近姐!!
唔駛同我講sorry!!

要講就講俾啲因為妳發放未經証實嘅消息而影响嘅朋友啦!!

哈哈!希望得你一個吧! 唔好再有第二個啊!

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 02:20 ]

Author: lalan Time: 16/06/2010 02:12

在網上討論區很容易出現爭辯不繼的場面
並不代表所有人並「蠻不講理」
而是在網上只用文字討論，很難直接明確表達所有，而且很容易有誤解

回到問題的本身︰
同意主席所說，在這裡沒有一個人希望任何雀鳥受到傷害
而事實是太過接近鳥巢攝影/或滋擾雀鳥是對雀鳥會做成傷害，而且是違法
我們應該把問題集中在如何定義滋擾/太近鳥巢的問題上
例如這個黑卷尾巢是在路旁的視線層(eyes-level)，鳥攝者應該遠離一點，至少在馬路對面，或者不要停留太久
而跟據ajohn的圖片所示，在這個距離下拍攝，實在是太近了
親鳥沒有棄巢，只是幸運而已

當然如何定出最好的距離/如何察覺雀鳥對人有警戒/定義何謂滋擾，並不容易「一刀切」定一個準則，但並非沒有標準(這點我認為值得再討論)
要每個人皆具有自律先顧雀鳥，再考慮拍攝也不是易事

p.s:大家可以同意與否，表達意見，希望見到之後的討論是圍繞題目有關的，而不再是尋兇記或是人身攻擊。

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 02:30

Quote:

原帖由 Sze 於 16/06/2010 02:11 發表

哈哈!希望得你一個吧! 唔好再有第二個啊!

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 02:20 ]

唔好哈哈!!就算!!

就妳這句'至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!'

已令在別的forum嘅網友諗多咗啦!!

http://www.hkwildlife.net/viewth ... p;extra=&page=3

第56貼.

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 02:59

做錯事！不是日後改進，難道要以死謝罪？還                                                                                                                                                    答:閣下何苦如此重刑？閣下罰班班先生道歉便算。
道聽途說班班先生因工事離開了香港，如果要回覆解釋，要道歉，要承擔責任，
我想也要等他回港才可以。我想你的目的也只是要看見別人出來認罪才安心吧！
那就要煩請你耐心地等待多數天吧！                                                                                                                                                             答:閣下為何如此喜誣陷別人之意？班班先生道歉與否與我何干？。

閣下所處位置，在師兄們後一點而矣，經已危坐馬路，再後就會横屍米埔！既然危險至此，為何不選擇退到馬路另一面安全的地方，而依然堅守危險之地？箇中原因，願聞其詳！                               答:閣下不知就裏，胡亂出計，對面馬路後面乃魚塘，易跌難返！更危！

ajohn只是生態專家，不代表他知曉世間所有事情，他很少張貼相片，忽略了將人面淡化，只是不知者不罪，閣下大可善意用英文向ajohn提出。ajohn是看不懂中文而你用中文指責他又是否有欠公平？而且他的相片是在公眾地方拍攝，如師兄們不喜歡上鏡的大可選擇避開，或將面望向另一邊。                                                                                                                      答:嗚！生態專家無常識！無知不能罪？要在下向 ajohn 提出？考英格列薯來了！？嗟！吾非管理員！焉能謀其政？(如有必要，無防。)閣下又字裏行間誣衊在下！在下以 ajohn 之相片作例，請問閣下何以雙重標準？何故厚此薄彼？並非指責 ajohn，懇請閣下別再貼罪於我！原來公衆地方拍攝之照片可以如此詮釋，既然如此，然！豬頭也不需用了！

用「斑斑先生」作代名詞是根據閣下的回覆#17中，所提及的相關資料而選擇一個大家都會明白所談是何人而又較簡短的代名詞。豬頭圖案與斑斑的分別，我想閣下心知肚明，否則為何閣下不選擇用「斑斑」圖案取代豬頭圖案呢？
答:閣下可以有心作一個簡短的代名詞，為何在下不可在無意中用一個可愛豬頭圖案？以己度人，要不得！！更且先有豬頭圖案，過後始有班班先生一詞！在下不能未卜先知，何能用班班圖案呢？(我亦無班班圖案，我覺得豬頭比班班可愛。)現在更好！根據閣下之說，豬頭圖案原來可以除去！

距離問題，我在回覆#10已表達過我的意見，煩請閣下再次細閱，如閣下想問我個人意見，我會說越遠越好，特別是人數眾多的時候。
答:閱罷 #10 其實閣下僅得虛無二字，模菱兩可，其實在大前題許可之下，在下亦同意越後越好。

若閣下不是欲轉移視線的話，那為何我多次希望大家（包括閣下）提出支持大家近攝鳥巢的理據後，閣下又不嘗試回覆我的問題呢？而只是針著於要「斑斑先生」先生認罪呢？為何兩個討論不能同時回答呢？

答:理據其實己說，只是閣下無心裝載，只好再提 : 如此多人在五/六米遠拍攝黑券尾，而且班班先生曾強加騷擾(再提非本意，不信也罷。)，黑券尾仍持續餵哺，並無間斷，近拍擾鳥巢之說，實難令人信服！其實所謂針對之說有澄清需要，閣下不停要別人提出近攝之論據，而最惡劣的情況莫過於此！如何不以此作例？但閣下內心早己否定此論據，而又無合理解釋！在此聲明，在下並非法官，有何要人認罪之權！都回答了，可？[/size]

[ Last edited by ying at 16/06/2010 13:56 ]

Author: maobb Time: 16/06/2010 05:57

動物為左仔女,有時就算危險,佢地都會為左仔女而甘願冒險.
行後幾尺影係o米唔得?
什至係o米唔影唔得?
唔通真係要佢唔要仔女走左,
先証明到佢係幾遠先會受到干擾!

Author: Beetle Time: 16/06/2010 09:16

攝影者的拍攝距離的確可以理解, 退後至馬路中或馬路後是有安全問題。
反而是攝影者逗留的時間才是問題。若果是真的愛鳥而不是愛照片的話, 何需逗留數小時之久! 若果作記錄的話, 既然卷尾媽媽來回多次, 10分鐘~20分鐘也足夠拍到記錄的照片吧!
討論的問題是"愛鳥還是愛照片"吧! 這問題不用作答, 自己問心就可以了!

Author: Beetle Time: 16/06/2010 09:25

另外我不明白跟朋友証實或收到消息後在討論區發放有什麼問題!
網上消息根本可信性不一, 即使是所謂「親眼目睹」的消息也可以因為觀察者角度跟當時判斷而有所被歪曲! 閱文者自會判斷, 何需出言罵之?

[ Last edited by Beetle at 16/06/2010 09:35 ]

Author: fkm Time: 16/06/2010 10:07

關於這個topic, 個人意見如下:

1. 起碼從21/5開始便有人拍攝該巢, 那時應正值孵蛋最初期 (孵化期約14天, 從見到幼鳥往後推算得出的結論), 如果有機會棄巢, 當時便是最有機會的. 但事實巢雛看來絲毫無損, 對影友的責難根本是多餘!

2. 關於距離, 不少"專家"或"資深觀鳥者"認為影友們太接近鳥巢. 但如上所述, 十多天來的拍攝, 影友們不清楚自己的距離有沒有問題嗎? 如果距離太近導致親鳥不敢回巢, 影友們還有甚麼可拍? 質疑影友們為求好片作出自私行為之說, 根本不合邏緝, 經不起推敲.

3. 關於拍攝鳥巢, 外地不少資深攝影師經驗不少了. 應如何拍攝, 怎樣拍才安全, 早有不少影友知嘵. 不合理的指責, 只會令識者啼笑皆非!

4. 大家執意爭拗攝影者可能對鳥巢帶來的干擾, 在另一個論壇有一位cntlaw版友說得真好 ---

Quote:

黑卷尾的巢顯然是非常接近 '道路使用者'，而大卡車，自行車和工人經常路過的, 而不是僅限於“攝影師”。
(反正池塘邊道路平坦路面只有2-3英尺寬）

如果每天呼嘯而過的車輛沒有嚇跑鳥兒, 為甚麼assume影友便會?

Author: lalan Time: 16/06/2010 10:50

Quote:

Original posted by fkm at 16/06/2010 10:07
關於這個topic, 個人意見如下:

1. 起碼從21/5開始便有人拍攝該巢, 那時應正值孵蛋最初期 (孵化期約14天, 從見到幼鳥往後推算得出的結論), 如果有機會棄巢, 當時便是最有機會的. 但事實巢雛看來絲毫無損, 對影友的責 ...

謝謝fkm的意見，
回應1,2
我認為這些討論不只針對這個黑卷尾巢，而是對所有鳥巢拍攝的方法
這次黑卷尾沒有棄巢只是幸運而已
我們應努力避免悲劇發生，而不是等到發生時才補救
回應3
我不清楚外國有甚麼經驗，也不知道本地人如何應用這些經驗，可否提供一些？
回應4
據經驗雀鳥不太怕汽車，反而怕人行近，可能是他們不了解汽車是甚麼，不太怕
而有途人經過和拍攝者駐紮，明顯分辨在於時間的長短和人類的反應。

Author: Sze Time: 16/06/2010 11:51

ying! 你所提及的魚塘路邊我也有企過，
是可以安全容納一橫行單人站立觀察及手持相機拍攝的，
但當然如果要安放大型腳架就不太方便。
魚塘旁邊有一條闊多於一米的小路與馬路垂直的，
我之前主要也是站在那兒做觀察，不過當然沒有大家企的位置那麼近鳥巢吧！

另外，很高興亦很感謝你亦同意"越後越好"的睇法。
其實既然你選擇了在這兒回覆留言，
那也證明了你對雀鳥也是有心的人，
為何不可以嘗試帶頭實踐"越後越好"的做法呢？
一開始時這個帖子的出現不是反對大家進行拍攝，
而只是希望大家可以將距離增加，以盡量減少對黑卷尾的壓力，
如果大家肯同意並實踐的話，根本就不會有之後的事發生！

我想重申沒有想過不准大家拍攝，
而只是之前已有太多次不愉快的事件發生。
我們雖然有我們的自由，有我們的權利，
但影相或觀鳥仲有自由不是大晒的，
我們還應該顧及身邊的人及動植物。
不自律的行為，影響到的不只是雀鳥，還有附近的居民及植物。
如有興趣可參考小女子的劣作 "野生動物的十個苦"
（香港自然生態雜誌第三期,P.12）
http://www.hkwildlife.net/viewthread.php?tid=55796&extra=page%3D1

放左兩日假，今天要返工了，所以今日日間不可能再作任何回覆了！
我只想重申多一次：

我沒有說不容許大家影這個巢，但是我想請大家將心比己，究竟是黑卷尾的幼鳥成功長大緊要些？還是大家影「爆框相」緊要些？愛護雀鳥不是單單貼幾張靚相上forum，不是單單說聲：「我愛雀鳥」就真的是愛。如果大家真的是愛牠們的話，為何不可退後到馬路對面？為何不可見人開始多時，已影到的朋友就讓位給剛到步的朋友，令在場的人數不會過多？一些簡單的「讓步及犧牲」，已可舒緩我們對牠們的壓迫感，問題只在於大家是愛自己的佳作多些，還是愛鳥兒多些吧！

[ Last edited by Sze at 16/06/2010 11:52 ]

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 12:26

Quote:

原帖由 csimon 於 15/06/2010 22:54 發表

見主席先生所言，即本帖中 #27 由本會雀鳥專家們所制定的 [觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則] 全是空談，更需與鳥類攝影人仕好好協商，再定出雙方可以接受的行為規範 ..!
[雀鳥專家] 對雀鳥的知識不如 [鳥類攝影人仕]...? 可悲 ... ...

其實有很多(鳥類攝影人仕)的知識絕對不會比(雀鳥專家)為低.不要說到可悲咁負面!

他們都非常熟悉各種烏類生活習性,居住環境,聲音.....等等.

如主席先生所言,
大家不要執著，要放開一點吧!!

事實上眞的無人想傷害,騷擾鳥兒一家的!!

Author: HFCheung Time: 16/06/2010 12:31

有鳥友對我說："[雀鳥專家] 對雀鳥的知識不如 [鳥類攝影人仕]...? 可悲 ..."

我不會怪責鳥友這樣說，但我鄭重聲明，[雀鳥專家]是傳媒朋友給于的稱號，我自稱鳥類愛好者，我對黑捲尾的繁殖行為包括容忍干擾情度真的不如資深鳥類攝影者，因為我的總觀察時間遠少於他/她們，這是實情，自己不覺可悲及難為情，反而覺得應不恥下問。

之前有鳥友討論到攝鳥者干擾程度，我十分歡迎這些資料及分析，至於實際做法，暫時仍未有共識。

既然如此，我想講一下假如發生鳥兒跌落水中的情況，我相信己有人想到這情況，但不仿講一次，若小鳥不慎跌落水中，旁人可考慮按照情況把鳥兒放回巢中，香港目前的法律可能是禁止這種做法，但我希望能與漁護署有同識，能接受這種做法。

張浩輝

Author: fkm Time: 16/06/2010 12:47

Quote:

Original posted by lalan at 16/06/2010 10:50

謝謝fkm的意見，
回應1,2
我認為這些討論不只針對這個黑卷尾巢，而是對所有鳥巢拍攝的方法
這次黑卷尾沒有棄巢只是幸運而已
我們應努力避免悲劇發生，而不是等到發生時才補救
回應3
我不清楚外國有甚麼經驗，也不知道本地 ...

希望我這樣說不會構成對閣下的不敬...

在小弟看來, 閣下對鳥類的認識有相當一部分是從書本而來, 或鳥友間的口耳相傳. 問題是熱誠的鳥攝者 (中外皆然) 差不多每天都親身和鳥兒打交道, 對鳥性, 他們真的懵然不知嗎? 最簡單, 書本上都說鳥兒不怕車子, 真的嗎? 為甚麼自己不試清楚看看? 諸如此類的信口開河, 徒添笑柄, 也令你們那些甚麼專家信用破產!

拍鳥巢和平常拍鳥有甚麼大分別? 不要把牠嚇到永不回頭就是了. 外國不少人在家中後院就擺設設施, 誘鳥築巢, 有鳥巢可拍時, 幾百人去拍也司空慣見. 這些拍攝鳥巢的經驗, 比不上某某專家食猜想? "這次黑卷尾沒有棄巢只是幸運而已" 這句話我絕不敢苟同. 21/5我在現場, 看到鳥友們一直小心觀察那對可能在孵蛋的黑卷尾, 當時已很清楚甚麼距離/拍法鳥兒不敢回巢, 甚麼距離/手法鳥兒便會回去臥巢讓人拍, 都在想盡方法避免嚇到鳥兒. 事實清清楚楚, 當天和後來的拍攝都證明他們是成功的.

清楚他們為甚麼對你們的"專家"不屑一顧了吧?

Author: pasha Time: 16/06/2010 12:54

Quote:

原帖由 HFCheung 於 16/06/2010 12:31 發表
有鳥友對我說："[雀鳥專家] 對雀鳥的知識不如 [鳥類攝影人仕]...? 可悲 ..."

我不會怪責鳥友這樣說，但我鄭重聲明，[雀鳥專家]是傳媒朋友給于的稱號，我自稱鳥類愛好者，我對黑捲尾的繁殖行為包括容忍干擾情度真的不如資深鳥 ...

其實黑卷尾BB出生時,有攝友係拍到有4隻BB的.但經過上星期連場大雨後.巢中只見3隻雛鳥.
相信有一隻已經跌咗落魚塘了....

如果雛鳥在我們眼前跌落水,相信我們一定會救它,放回巢上.
因為有些朋友已準備好工具,營救小黑B.

[ 本帖最後由 pasha 於 16/06/2010 13:09 編輯 ]

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 13:46

海納百川，有容為大，當然不當的行為，大家不應去做(泛指所有人，僅個人想法，不喜可以不理。)但一些現實証據或新的過案，為何不納入資料紀錄之內呢？作為一個生態紀錄者或專家，都是從觀察紀錄中(應該有更多方法)獲得資料去研究鳥類或其他生物，與其不停爭辯拍攝距離，強指別人不是，何不借此難得機會下苦功於此對黑卷尾為何與別不同？不怕人類騷擾呢？很多舊理論都是由新理論去打破的，例如:有師兄說鳥類怕人不怕車，在此之前，我是想信的，因為親身經歷過，但是此次拍攝黑卷尾卻給我一個新的體驗，十多人近拍黑卷尾，哺育清潔從無間斷，但當一有貨車經過，黑卷尾本來正在清理糞便，都會掉下糞便飛走，待貨車遠去才飛回巢邊繼續清潔，觀/拍鳥之吸引我，就是因為可以給我新的體驗，開我的眼界，我是一個老式人，但我個人喜歡'大膽假設，小心求証'(不同意，可以不理)，言盡方於此，如無必要，在下不會再在此處就此話題下筆，請請。

[ Last edited by ying at 16/06/2010 14:02 ]

Author: cwho Time: 16/06/2010 17:21

真要多謝ajohn在此貼題, 讓大家盡情地發表了觀鳥攝鳥及育鳥的意見,客觀地講, 觀鳥及攝鳥對環境位置要求是有所不同, 所追求的亦有分別, 從鳥攝的角度來看, 現時大家所選位置, 個人認為確是最理想的陣地,對鳥兒是有過威脅,難得是黑巻尾能適應如此大場面,繼續我行我素,如表演般持續育兒. 鳥攝愛好者取態應是從鳥巢個別情況, 個別處理吧. 但從觀鳥愛好者來說, 會是以鳥兒習性來判斷, 跟據過往的經驗, 親鳥在環境受到騷擾時,有機會選擇棄巢,禍及幼鳥,才會就近距離拍鳥提出意見. 正如輝哥所言, 大家不要執著於己見,聽一下對方的經驗,共同為雀鳥保育多提意見,多作貢獻,有鳥在野,大家自然有更多觀鳥攝鳥的機會喇, 祝願各方多溝通多尊重多合作, 開心觀鳥, 開心攝鳥!

小弟5月上旬已看見這黑巻尾在這樹停留,來去出沒,當時仍未巢,相信這對鳥對車來人往的環境已心中有數,最終選擇在此營巢. 不知鳥會有沒有打算為這巢鳥做一個研究報告,總結各方意見及鳥兒實際反應,供大家分享; 在下想提議由ajohn來作總結報告,不知兄台願當此任嗎?(這提議希望有朋友用英文轉告ajohn,謝謝.)

Author: ying Time: 16/06/2010 21:11

TO: ajohn
      Recently I have posted several pictures and used a “pig head” carton to cover the faces of those people who were captured in my pictures.  I posted these pictures were planned to explain a scenario and not to intend invading others’ privacy.  However, a HKBWS member named Sze complained about my pictures and commented that I shouldn’t use the carton to cover the people faces.  Then I asked her to explain why those photos posted by you on 15 June 2010 without covering the faces of those peoples in your pictures.  She said that you are an expert of birds; it is normal that you won’t know everything which includes protection of others’ privacy.

I thought that anything wrong with the posting, this should be pointed out by the forum administer.  However, Sze said that if I found your photos were posting incorrectly, I should response to you directly.  As such, I would like to comment your posting on 15 June 2010 as follows:

I found that you haven’t covered the faces of those people who were captured in your photos.  Have you considered those people who were captured in your pictures may not want to expose themselves publicly?  It seems that you have invaded their privacy.
As such, may I suggest you to cover people faces when you planned to post their pictures in the public?  Like Google, accidentally they have captured people in their photos when they working on their map design.  They worried about invasion of others’ privacy.  As such, they have reported these events to the relevant Govn’t and seek for their advice before taking any action.

因不忍被攝師兄抛頭露面！又無人敢對專家發言！故為此文對 ajhon 作出勸告。

Author: fkm Time: 16/06/2010 22:38

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 16/06/2010 13:46
海納百川，有容為大，當然不當的行為，大家不應去做(泛指所有人，僅個人想法，不喜可以不理。)但一些現實証據或新的過案，為何不納入資料紀錄之內呢？作為一個生態紀錄者或專家，都是從觀察紀錄中(應該有更多方法)獲得資料去研究鳥類 ...

事實上, 正如我之前所說, 差不多每天都去找鳥拍鳥的影友, 對鳥性不可能沒有深刻的體會. 鳥兒怕人不怕車, 根本就是書本上一大謬論之一, 謝謝Ying兄分享您的觀察.

但有一點要更正您的. 過去兩三年我先後觀察/拍攝數個黑券尾巢 (當然, 沒有一個是eye-level的). 在我眼中, 目前米埔這一對, 其實算是黑券尾中比較怕人的, 起碼牠們早前在未習慣攝影者在場之前曾略顯遲疑. 我幾年來都是大模斯樣, 站在樹旁便拍的, 從開始築巢到雛鳥離巢, 牠們都當我透明! 最誇張一次, 有狗隻經過樹下, 黑券尾強悍到馬上飛下把狗啄到落荒而逃 (但卻從沒襲擊我, 我想是當我無到吧). 所以, 我對現時這對鳥的表現, 毫不覺得意外.

Author: lalan Time: 17/06/2010 00:19

Quote:

Original posted by fkm at 16/06/2010 12:47

希望我這樣說不會構成對閣下的不敬...

在小弟看來, 閣下對鳥類的認識有相當一部分是從書本而來, 或鳥友間的口耳相傳. 問題是熱誠的鳥攝者 (中外皆然) 差不多每天都親身和鳥兒打交道, 對鳥性, 他們真的懵然不知嗎? ...

首先一定要澄清的小弟絕不是專家，書讀得不多，文筆也差，詞不達意。
(註︰我想在這裡表達的人，只是關心雀鳥，與專家不專家沒關係)
而我說雀鳥不怕車子，其實是想回應經過的車子，多謝ying的意見，原來他們也很怕車輛經過
值得注意的是車子、途人經過的時間絕對比駐守拍攝者短

每種雀鳥的性格不同，當然我絕對同意「不要把牠嚇到永不回頭就是了」
既然今次可以相安無事，
拍攝者也可以展示更大的風度給鳥巢多一點空間是比較好
一來可作其他拍攝者的示範
都是同一句︰我們應努力避免悲劇發生，而不是等到發生時才補救
而我相信沒有人會拒絕吧！

Author: Sze Time: 17/06/2010 01:47

回應只是希望盡最後一點棉力!
盡了力已是問心無愧!
不回應, 不代表已經放棄,認輸或妥協!
只是看著有些人不停將"愛護"的理解自我化而感到無能為力!
值得與之分享知識的還有很多人,
只想將心血及心機放在我個人值得放的地方,
始終個人的時間及能力有限,
當未能兼顧所有事時,
我要選擇覺得應該投放時間及心機的地方及對象!
只是想提意大家, 在討論區上任何人都可以講他想講的意見,
在網上學習時請小心留意, 並適當地作出判斷,
尤其是小心有些人是講一套, 做又是另一套!
之前的經歷(題目: D人係咪痴線架？)告訴我知, 有些人沒有專家的銜頭,
但有時又喜歡扮專家, 跟住又話人地扮專家,
又或者叫人唔好信"個d 所謂專家",
好彩! 我從來也只是一名有時喜歡亂講說話,口水多的蛋散!
失言了!

P.S.
今晚(17Jun) 20:45-21:00 新城資訊台, "知識迎人" 中有一個環節叫 "我們看見鳥" !
今次我會在節目上講近攝鳥巢的問題, 希望盡多一點棉力令大家知道,
不自律的攝影行為及態度會對野生雀鳥有什麼影響, 希望大家給野生雀鳥多留一點生存空間！

[ Last edited by Sze at 17/06/2010 02:01 ]

Author: ajohn Time: 17/06/2010 09:07

Dear Ying,
The photos I took were of low resolution and fairly distant. Although I had originally intended to black out the faces of those present, I decided this was not necessary when I saw the quality of the images being posted. I still consider that the individuals involved are not identifiable from the photos, but nevertheless I have removed the closer photo to prevent causing offence. The remaining photo I do not consider can be considered offensive (please let me know if you disagree).

In future, can I request that if you are directly criticising me, you do so via the PM system on the website rather than in the public forum. I would be happy to continue the discussion there, but the subject matter of this thread has now changed considerably. I apologise that I cannot reply to you in Chinese.

My original intention with this post was to highlight the issues surrounding nesting birds and to educate those people who may not have much experience with the issues involved. The drongo nest was initially intended primarily as a topical example to highlight the issues involved. In my opinion it is unfortunate that, after several days of intense discussion, there are still constantly photographers next to the drongo nest. I hope that more space is given as the chicks prepare to fledge - at the moment there is nowhere for the chicks to go on their first flights.

What a shame that there is now concern about the privacy of people who may be breaking the law, but still little regard for the privacy of the birds who are trying to raise their family.

[ Last edited by ajohn at 17/06/2010 10:11 ]

Author: Beetle Time: 17/06/2010 13:48

Regarding John's reply,

I think there has been much discussion about the appropriate distance from nests and the related issues in the thread, but it has been masked by some disputes about a watcher/photographer who tries to stop people from photographing around the Drongo nests.

People argues that there is no scientific foundation/literatures showing that photographing activities around the nests would cause disturbance, nor those about appropriate distances from nests when observing/photographing. Thus, some people do think there is no problem gathering at the present position for photographing the Drongo nest. They also have doubts about the credibility of comments from "so call Professionals" (like John yourself). As there is no apparent damage to the nest throughout these days, it seems that the distance is "OK" (John has justed pointed out that there may not be enough space for test flights of babies drongos). It seems that the disturbance from cars would be greater than the photographers, there are observations from one of the comments that the drongo response to passing trucks rather than photgraphing activities.
However, i worry that after such a case more and more photographer would think that photographing near nests is acceptable. The problem is, i believe, a number of nests would be affected in the future but these cases would be invisible - as there wouldn't be photos or other sorts of evidence.
Even there is an obeservable damage to the nests (say this drongo nest unforturnately), the photographers can still argue by reasons such as "This is nature" or "There are other disturbances around", and they can still be "innocent" if you use the Hong Kong law system (which assumes that people are innocent).

I worry that such disputes (including issues about using flashlights and baiting) would continue between some photographer & Conservationists, as there is no good scientific support for both sides. More sadly, I believe there is a group of photographers (who seems not present in this forum) who are very angry about some enthusiastic conservationists (and probably vice versa) and which would be one of the reasons leading to such a "Battle". We always hope there are Bird Professionals to stop this dispute, however now it seems that some people disregard the advices from professionals and believe what they are doing is right.

Beetle Cheng

[ Last edited by Beetle at 17/06/2010 14:13 ]

Author: cntlaw Time: 17/06/2010 15:34

Quote:

Original posted by ajohn at 17/06/2010 09:07
.....it is unfortunate that, after several days of intense discussion, there are still constantly photographers next to the drongo nest. I hope that more space is given as the chicks prepare to fledge - at the moment there is nowhere for the chicks to go on their first flights.
...

ajohn

You probably did not get a chance to see versions of all the translated responses on your own thread. I saw there were numerous power debates on safe distances and suitability for photographing the Black Drongo nest. I have not seen a list of deliverables of working solutions being proposed to help the Black Drongo nest.

The Black Drongo nest is obviously very close to the 'road users', not limited to "photographers" but also big trucks, cyclists and workers frequently passing by, every 3-5 minutes at some peak periods. The pond side road flat pavement is only about 2-3 feet wide anyway.
That's a wishful thinking if the chicks aren't either land on the water or could be trucks roll it over. As a matter of fact. Mai Po access main traffic road offers no "safe distance" for enough clearance for (a crowd) photographing the nest. If that is 'safe' for the nest, it is not safe for the people.

A 2-day old thread people are still trying to resolve their differences. I am still hearing voices of frustrations including this one of yours. We did not face the reality enough.  There is no assurance to stop people visiting the nest. Not every visitor of the nest is a HKBWS member. Or do we still want to see people almost ending up a fight at the nest spot or come back to this thread with their photos proof arguments?

"Love" the Birds is a bit different from "Care" the birds, someone needs to act.

Options:

(Please please anyone do not challenge me on this for the sake I am only brain storming, if you have a better option please simply add to the list. )

Inform AFCD to fence up the area so that "safe distance" is maintained between all the road users and the nest. Life and dead of the chicks we don't care, let the nature to decide.  (I am aware a fence may not be easily set up, this option is somewhat ideal)

Leave the photographers alone, give them  our trust, their presence could mean higher chances the chicks can be picked up

I read that people in some countries do relocate nests in their garden and high chance the feeding is resumed soon as the mother hears the crying chicks. Otherwise, they would call their local authority (our AFCD) to handle the abandoned nest. Therefore, the third option is to request AFCD to relocate the nest to a safe area. I do not know enough if AFCD has procedures for escalation, monitoring and proper handling of any potential abandoned bird nest. I have only heard AFCD is aware of the Black Drongo nest issue but don't know what is their accountability about protecting the chicks.

cntlaw
p.s. People did not deal with personal criticisms in the private messaging system is a sign of not trusting (knowing) each other, just a typical local Internet forum culture. FYI, Ying got a lot of kicks in front of public too. It is fair for you to say so if you think you wanted to be treated differently in this forum thread.

[ Last edited by cntlaw at 17/06/2010 15:36 ]

Author: Beetle Time: 17/06/2010 15:53

I found cntlaw's post very constructive, i strongly agree with your opinion about setting up a fence to help the Drongo nest and ensure safety of photographers.

However there are so many nests which are prone to human disturbances each breeding season, it is impossible to set up fences at each of them, that's why self-discipline of photographers and watchers are essential. The difficulty here is it is near impossible to set up a clear-cut guildline, which have been discussed earlier.

Author: fkm Time: 18/06/2010 17:04

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11745

You, who claim yourselves to be "conservatists", are some of the WORST human beings I have seen anywhere. Period.

Author: HKBWS Bonnie Time: 18/06/2010 17:22

Quote:

Original posted by fkm at 18/06/2010 17:04
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=11745

You, who claim yourselves to be "conservatists", are some of the WORST human beings I have seen anywhere. Period.

請各位注意出帖的用詞, 同時在本討論區發言前謹記當初注冊時列出的規條 (尤其是第(3)點)
Please kindly be aware of the wordings that you use in the post and also the agreement that you made during the registration process in this forum (esp. (3)).

登記成為香港觀鳥會討論區(“本討論區”)的會員，您必須同意及遵守以下規條及受其約束:

(1) 本討論區以野生鳥類討論為主，關於鳥類飼養、生物買賣的討論恕不歡迎。

(2) 本討論區的管理員會定時監察討論區的運作，管理員會盡可能在合理時間內修改或删除任何有可能引起爭議性的文章或相片, 然而你必須明白管理員不可能查閱所有的文章或相片, 因此本討論區的文章內容並不代表香港觀鳥會的言論、立場或意見, 香港觀鳥會並不會對本討論區的會員所發表的文章內容或相片負上任何法律責任.

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Author: fkm Time: 18/06/2010 21:05

Quote:

Original posted by Membership at 18/06/2010 17:22

請各位注意出帖的用詞, 同時在本討論區發言前謹記當初注冊時列出的規條 (尤其是第(3)點)
Please kindly be aware of the wordings that you use in the post and also the agreement that you made during the reg ...

So, your reputable society encourage violent behaviour?

I stAnd by what I said about this gang!

[ Last edited by fkm at 18/06/2010 21:07 ]

Author: fkm Time: 18/06/2010 21:11

In a previous incident, your estimable chairman answered as follows:

Quote:

fkm 鳥友，
觀鳥會不可能限制各位會員/嘉賓言論，我明白那一段發言可能引起閣下不安，.....

張浩輝

So, different treatment to different people? Someone enjoy more privilege than others in your society???????????????????????????????????????

Author: cntlaw Time: 18/06/2010 22:07

Quote:

Original posted by fkm at 18/06/2010 21:05

So, your reputable society encourage violent behaviour?

I stAnd by what I said about this gang!

OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSON ORDINANCE - SECT 39
Assault occasioning actual bodily harm
Any person who is convicted of an assault occasioning actual bodily harm shall
be guilty of an offence triable upon indictment, and shall be liable to
imprisonment for 3 years.
(Replaced 24 of 1950 Schedule. Amended 50 of 1991 s.
4) [cf. 1861 c.100 s.4 U.K.]
侵害人身罪條例 - SECT 39
襲擊致造成身體傷害
任何人因襲擊他人致造成身體傷害而被定罪，即屬犯可循公訴程序審訊的罪行，可處監禁3年。
(由1950年第24號附表代替。由1991年第50號第4條修訂) [比照 1861 c. 100 s. 4 U.K.]

Author: babun Time: 19/06/2010 03:33

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 15/06/2010 22:14
剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩 ...

主席，容許表達我的意見
我認為不是用協商的字眼
而是，作為專業的團體，應該由鳥會的專家，就鳥兒的生態和習性
定出一個對鳥類不構成騷擾的拍攝距離
（這個距離不應該由我們一般會員或拍攝者來協商決定）
我相鳥會會員一定會守規矩
若沒有興趣遵守的，就請他們退會好了
自由社會嘛
退了會，鳥會就無法規範他們
有問題就交由漁護署或警方處理

但是，一日身為會員
若有不適當的行為
鳥會應該有鮮明的態度和嚴正的指責
不是甚麼﹣﹣﹣﹣業餘團體，觀鳥但求高興啫！﹣﹣﹣﹣這種態度。

我們鳥會應該有一套保護大自然的原則和規範
而且要求應該要比一般人高
我們身為鳥會，不為大自然和鳥類講說話
誰做？
我們是應該對鳥會有高一線的期望。

我覺得愛護大自然的人
雖然心中可能為所喜好的動植物心急或緊張
但都應該克制，只應在不打擾他們的情況下作觀察和欣賞
不存在甚麼：大家都在為母親及孩子打氣，希望牠們成功離巢。
（這不是近距離拍照的藉口，這是兩碼子的事！）

其實
在這件事上
可以比較清楚表明
到底由相片中所看到的距離
是否可以接受？
這些是比較客觀的事實
不妨指出
不是凡事都要和諧，而將鳥會的底線愈定愈低的

附加：
鳥會應該多出版關於鳥類的生態習性
讓市民和會員除了會辨認鳥
更要認識他們的生活模式和習性
從而更好保護環境，保護鳥類
不會因無知而做出傷害或干擾鳥類或自然生態的行為
單單出圖鑑是不足夠的

謝謝！

對鳥會還有期望的會員上

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