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Subject: Northern Goshawk?? 蒼鷹?? [Print This Page]
Author: pitarhk    Time: 11/12/2011 21:25     Subject: Northern Goshawk?? 蒼鷹??

11/12/2011 Mai Po pond #3

Flying with Collared Crow, I'm said this is Eurasian Sparrowhawk before.









Photos take by Cheung Hok Wun

[ Last edited by pitarhk at 12/12/2011 10:08 ]
Author: kmatthew    Time: 12/12/2011 00:56

Isn't this a little large for a Northern Sparrowhawk? a Collard Crow is around 50cm, while most books say female NS only get to around 40cm? Just a wild guess, but can this be a Northern Goshawk? It does looks very bulky in the photos, though it's primary projection seems a little too long?

[ Last edited by kmatthew at 12/12/2011 01:01 ]
Author: pitarhk    Time: 12/12/2011 10:15

More photos.













Thanks Mike borrow camera.

Peter
Author: pitarhk    Time: 12/12/2011 10:17

In photo #3 and #5, I belive this is Northern Goshawk..
Author: sdavid    Time: 12/12/2011 10:39

Looks good for one, with that white strpe over the eye and bold eye patch (#3) and curved, trailing edges to the wings.

Great to have the Crow in as well for size comparison
Author: kmatthew    Time: 12/12/2011 10:43

After these new photos posted, I do believe this is a Northern Goshawk. Other then the comparatively large size to the Collard Crow, it looks much bulkier then most Sparrowhawks I've seen before. IN photos 5 & 6 the tail is rather short compare to Sparrowhawks, also note the rather conspicuous fluffy white feather at the base of the tail. The pale supercilium and dark "Mask" can also be clearly seen in picture 3.

Congratulations for this great record Pitar!

[ Last edited by kmatthew at 12/12/2011 10:45 ]
Author: kkoel    Time: 12/12/2011 10:47

And a handsome adult male as well. Congratulations to A Kai and those who found and saw it!!

[ Last edited by kkoel at 12/12/2011 10:50 ]
Author: brendank    Time: 12/12/2011 13:32

Congratulations, on an excellent find!!

I believe Northern Goshawk is currently in Category E (or whatever it is called now) and was seen at Mai Po before according to the Avifauna. I don't see any reason why Goshawk couldn't appear here naturally although Goshawks are popular for falconry.

[ Last edited by brendank at 12/12/2011 13:36 ]
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 12/12/2011 21:35

Dear all

Points not in favour of the bird being not a Northern goshawk are:

a) arm of wing not a lot longer in trailing edge than that of the hand (fingers collectively)
b) wing tip too pointed
c) tail corners too sharp instead of being round
d) underbody's bars not dark enough

However other points in favour of it being a NG not mentioned by others are:
a) pronounced head protrusion
b) heavy body keel

Overall, the bird remains indeterminable unless there are more photos showing upperparts and how it soars
and glides.

S L Tai

[ Last edited by tsheunglai at 12/12/2011 21:38 ]
Author: thinfor    Time: 13/12/2011 09:40

I think without talking into details, the head color pattern (the dark patch around the eye) and the size (that can be compared with white-collared crow) are very clearly seen.
Simply by elimination, the most possible guess (I say guess) is Northern Goshawk.
Let's wait for the final decision of RC.
Author: Jonathmartinez    Time: 13/12/2011 11:43

This bird looks also perfect to me for a Northern Goshawk, the silhouette is simply the best feature, a long neck, the base of the tail is really large, and the edge of the tail sligtly rounded, the wing very long and well pointed (should be more rounded in Eurasian Sparrowhawk), and this bird has a really heavy breast, it is quite obvious in many of the picture.
The ear covert are also really dark.
I've seen Northern Goshawk quite often in France, and if this one is not I have to review all my past sightings :-)
Some information from the observers on how the bird was flying could be of good interest also, it is quite distinctive.
It's really a great find, congratulations.

Jonathan
Author: lalan    Time: 13/12/2011 12:03

Jonathan,
This Northern Goshawk is fighting with the Collared Crow, is difficult to tell it's distinctive flying.
Alan
Author: kmike    Time: 13/12/2011 13:30

Congratulations on a great find that is long overdue in Hong Kong.

Hope it stays around!

Cheers
Mike
Author: HFCheung    Time: 13/12/2011 21:53

This bird was seen in a birdwatching class outing.  Great find!  I am sure the next birdwatching class outings will be full-house as well.  Also, I think this incident clearly shows the power of Electronic-assisted birdwatching.

HF Cheung
Author: tmichael    Time: 13/12/2011 23:02

To bring up an old matter, I saw three separate birds like this in the winter of 1988-89:

a) Tai Po Kau - perched high up on the ridge in early December
b) Lai Chi Wo - again perched in a pine tree in very late December or early January
c) Lam Tsuen Valley - this bird was seen in flight as it slowly moved across the valley and was being mobbed by crows and was MASSIVE (also seen by Richard Lewthwaite). This record was in mid-late January

All the dates are approximate and are from memory.

All the records were submitted at the time, but were not accepted, for reasons that were never totally clear to me, it being said, I believe, that Crested Goshawk was not eliminated.

I had some experience of the species at the time, from UK and France, and have subsequently had more in Northern China, and suffice it to say, it's always remained on my list.

I believe there was an "irruption" by this species that winter, and perhaps this bird may herald another such event.

One to watch out for certainly!

Mike Turnbull
Author: tmichael    Time: 13/12/2011 23:09

One rider I would add to Jonathan's comment about Eurasian Sparrowhawk wing-shape, is that while the more rounded wing-shape thing is true of birds in Europe, I think the birds in East Asia are clearly longer and narrower winged, giving an almost harrier like jizz (even particularly like Pallid or Montagu's).

Just an impression they've always given me.

Other features of jizz/outline referred to for both species I fully agree with.

Mike Turnbull
Author: subbuteo    Time: 13/12/2011 23:12

I believe there was a Northern Goshawk reported  from Lam Tsuen last winter.  I am not sure who reported it (or if it was submitted) and unfortunately there were no photos posted.  I hope this one decides to stick around- great find and the photo comparison with collared crow really shows the size.

Dylan

[ Last edited by subbuteo at 13/12/2011 23:13 ]
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 14/12/2011 12:13

Dear all

Honestly, I am not experienced with paeleartic NGs. I gave my last comment to stimulate discussions which
has achieved its purpose abundantly. I cast doubts though the size of the bird had the overwhelming effect of tipping it in favour of being a NG. I favoured Eurasian sparrowhawk for I was and still am against the white fluffy feather on the undertail and vent and the black face aspect as key features. For a Japanese photo bird book showed me both features appear in both species.

It must be emphasized here birdwatching is much more than action with electronic-assisted devices. Proper knowledge and experience of birdwatching is of paramount importance. Modern people tend to pay little attention to that importance and focus on the application of photographic devices almost alone. As photgraphic skills take top priority, their progression in birwatching skills and anything touching ornithology lag far behind. Also, photographic activities makes birders sedentary, diminishing greatly birdwatching's athletic aspects.

I'm very thankful to have seen so many excellent bird photos on the forum which greatly helped me in studying bird plumage, structure and coloration in great details. But as yet I still rely solely on my eyes and ears (plus of course a good pair of binoculars) for basic obersvation which activate my brain to high levels of active learning (by building and modifying mind maps and reinforcing and wiring up my brain cell networks) and less on muscular reflexes.

Not without a little regret I am witnessing here a lot of good photographic bird analysers more than true birdwatchers, especially among the young ones. Can someone count the number of primaires and measure  their respective lengths of an accipiter when they are out on the field? Surely they can do so by shooting first and look at a computer monitor later on. Such skills develop what I can at most categorize as photographic identification ones which are nothing different from surfing on the internet.

S L Tai

[ Last edited by tsheunglai at 14/12/2011 12:24 ]
Author: thinfor    Time: 14/12/2011 14:33

So far, I regarded this post as an ID with the help of some record shots.  The bird was found during a birdwatching class in MP where the bird in doubt was quite far away and could not be clearly seen without help of binoculars (even telescope is required).  

So I don't know why "It must be emphasized here birdwatching is much more than action with electronic-assisted devices" is commented.  Because the whole group of beginners as well as the leaders were not sure about this bird, it's very reasonable to take record shots for ID.  I think it's undoubtedly better than word descriptions and drawings right?  Whether the use of technology is good or not depends on how to use it.  I recognize that all participants in this thread are good birdwatchers, at least not SEDENTARY and have a good balance on using photographic devices during birdwatching.  As HFCheung said, we know electronic devices just assist our birdwatching.  The bird would not have been found if those group of people just stayed at a particular point without observation and just concentrated on the DC screen.  I can't see why their effort of using non-electronic human senses to observe the birds has been ignored.

Just wanna comment that being two extremes is not the only way to treat this kind of controversy.  If one uses electronic devices for the following purposes, why not?
- to show the beauty of birds to public, to insight others to love the nature more
- to record for scientific researches so as to know more about our wildlifes in the same planet
- to serve as education purpose, a picture is more than a thousand words

Among the participants in this thread, I can feel that we never rule out anything but statistically, so far most of us incline to think it's a NG.  I think all the participants have used their birding knowledge for ID.  I still remembered when I attended the birdwatching course, I was acquired some basic guidelines for bird ID:
1)  Observe habitat, some birds will not likely appear in some terrains
2)  Size, very crucial, when beginners even don't know how to differentiate between a common magpie and a magpie robin
3)  Distinct features, with precaution that every bird varies
4)  Try to do elimination and make the MOST POSSIBLE GUESS

My guess was come from the above logic. My point (2) has nearly ruled out Eurasian Sparrowhawk (ES) since even a female just has a wingspan of 71.5-79cm (from book).  The white-collared crow (WCC) with size around 21inches (also from book) should be larger than an ES.  Now the photos showed clearly the bird was even larger than a WCC, so I thought it looked more like a NG, despite from the fact that the viewing angle or resolution angle may have some discrepancies but will not be very significant. Of course I will be glad to learn if an ES's size can vary so much (even outside the range between M and F).

Since 2008 when I started birdwatching, I haven't upgraded my camera but just borrowed a friend of mine an old telescope to facilitate my birdwatching.  I just did some shots for the birds I've seen for recording purposes and shared my joy among friends.  But then now I was grouped as an unobservant birdwatcher without "basic observation which activate one's brain to high levels of active learning (by building and modifying mind maps and reinforcing and wiring up my brain cell networks) and less on muscular reflexes.   Also, I do not intend to label any birdwatchers but just a simple ID discussion I am labelled to be a "photographic bird analyser more than true birdwatchers, especially among the young ones".  I have been busy recently and I can't go birdwatching much but I still observe the birds near my residence when I walk doggies with my bare eyes and ears.  I am happy with just one or two common tailorbirds.  But then I again was commented as "photographic identification ones which are nothing different from surfing on the internet."

May I ask why such a straightforward ID using just help of a few record photos would bring me the above?  I think it was not so fair to me, as well as other birdwatchers.

Among the messages in the thread, I know that pitarhk who is so dedicated to black kite observation.  I know Matthew, Brendank, kmike, subbuteo who are so generously share their bird records near and outside their residential/working areas.  And all the rest who regularly provides comments to new birdwatchers.
Author: ajohn    Time: 14/12/2011 16:38

I think this thread actually shows the importance of the combined approach. Without being in the field birds like this would not be seen. Taking photos allows an objective documentation of the event, not dependent upon someone's personal impressions in the field. But the photos are not always enough - with only the first set of photos this bird would never have been more than a 'possible/probable', it is only the second photos which allow ID. And with these photos the importance of field experience is important again - for those with lots of experience of accipiters this is an obvious Northern Goshawk, for those with less experience the ID may be less certain (hence the discussion about Eurasian Sparrowhawk).

There is no need to polarise everyone as either a birdwatcher or a photographer - it can sometimes be beneficial to be both (but I admit I am not!). Perhaps some of the other claimed Northern Goshawks would have stood a better chance of acceptance if photos were available. But there is a risk when taking photographs that important aspects of behaviour of some species could be missed, so the presence of a photo is no guarantee of acceptance.
Author: lun9394    Time: 14/12/2011 21:18





same day same bird
Author: Sze    Time: 14/12/2011 21:20

事實係，當時Peter覺得隻猛禽應該唔係普通野，於是好緊張地叫大家影記錄相，但在場的導師及同學都只係掛住睇隻鷹俾隻白頸鴉追殺，而同學們又好擔心Peter既聲浪嚇走基圍中一大群休息中的黑臉琵鷺，結果只有幾個人有影低幾張記錄照。

後加補充：當日同學共40人，導師連helper共11人，全團共51人。

[ Last edited by Sze at 15/12/2011 00:35 ]
Author: kmatthew    Time: 14/12/2011 21:51

"If we teach today as we taught yesterday, we rob our children of tomorrow." - John Dewey
Author: pitarhk    Time: 14/12/2011 23:08

Quote:
Original posted by Sze at 14/12/2011 21:20
事實係，當時Peter覺得隻猛禽應該唔係普通野，於是好緊張地叫大家影記錄相，但在場的導師及同學都只係掛住睇隻鷹俾隻白頸鴉追殺，而同學們又好擔心Peter既聲浪嚇走基圍中一大群休息中的黑臉琵鷺，結果只有幾個人有影低幾張記錄 ...
或者我當時人用中文澄清：

當日11/12/2011大約14:57，我帶其中一隊約10人的觀鳥班同學學習觀察3號塘休息中的黑臉琵鷺，正當接近完成之際，同學們發現天空上有一隻白頸鴉追打一隻隼形目的雀鳥。
這時我下意識拿起我的雙筒望遠鏡觀看，發現這真是隼形目、雀鷹類的猛禽，在我短時間用雙筒觀看其細節，我發現牠的翼長和尾羽比例不是常見的松雀鷹/鳳頭鷹/日松類，於是我直覺判斷這是雀鷹，然後於下望遠鏡，向同學呼叫，尤其是有相機的同學幫手作拍攝記錄，由於我覺得自己的聲浪非常影響休息中的黑臉琵鷺，只能夠兩位有相機的同學幫手拍攝記錄，即#1同埋#3文章內的相片。
但是經過白頸鴉的追擊，雀鷹也不知所蹤，我帶領的隊伍最前，其後的隊伍距離給我遠，我又怕聲浪影響雀鳥，引致後來的同學不知道發生一回事，誤認為松雀鷹。
最後，我把照片發佈在這新聞組，經過Matthew、Kwok jai、David、Manson、Koel、Jonathan等確認為蒼鷹。

我也聲明，我是用雙筒望遠鏡觀鳥的，單筒和相機只不過是我用雙筒的極限才會使用。以今次的照片為例，我不使用相機，就不會有今次的蒼鷹。

Peter
Author: yyattung    Time: 15/12/2011 10:39

最後兩句講出重點.
Author: wgeoff    Time: 15/12/2011 17:48

Details of this record have already been supplied by Peter and it will be reviewed by the Records Committee.
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 15/12/2011 20:18

Dear all

I've and am not criticizing those who had taken photos of the bird in question, nor those who saw the bird no matter how they responded on that day. If any of my words have been found are pointing at them
I could only regret for misunderstanding.

I'm only commenting on the present trend of shifting birdwatching to bird-photographing which has its obvious and serious shortcomings of which I have listed some only.To be able to fully identify a bird, photos are just not enough, the reasons of which I will not elaborate here. Of those who participated
here I found none who are experts of the bird in question. A majority opinion has been reached solely because there has been good luck of the presence of a crow. Other than that, nobody has been given us a comprehensive and convincing analysis.

Accipiters are always hard that most of the experts about this genus will readily agree.

About Matthew's citation of John Dewey, my opinion is that Dewey said those words in the early part/first half of the twentieth century, though they still has their values. What he wants to say is that teaching methods change according to methodologies and social changes which do not touch on the philosophy of education. I still maintain that when you are taking photos of birds, you are not learning as much as you could. For newcomers it amounts to take photos and learn later and for more experienced ones, it mean they can do the same and produce some photographic evidence in case it is a rarity or for discussion.

I still maintain that while you are using your cameras and video-recorders you are missing a lot of the bird's behaviour, such as its calls, wing beats, wing position while it glides or soars. Take one example
when I look at a Spotted eagle soaring, it is always helpful to check if its tail is spread widely and check the uppertail coverts for its U-shaped whitish patch. Long narrow wings in shallow-V of course, as many of us know, are good indicators of it being a harrier.

As Confucius says, '(in face of comments/criticisms) Examine yourself (for what you have said or done). If nothing guarantees reproach, then fear not nor worry. 內省不咎，乎何憂何懼 (personal translation)

For sensitive ones who have participated in the discussion, I am very satisfied with the participants so far. So far John's words seem to echo nearest mine. I repeat again, I am not pointing my finger at those who were present at the scene when the bird appeared. I am so far only commenting on trends and the present general birding situation. Examine my words said previously and you will agree so.

S L Tai

[ Last edited by tsheunglai at 15/12/2011 21:10 ]
Author: HFCheung    Time: 15/12/2011 20:28

再次恭喜, 麻鷹大使不做, 改做蒼鷹大使, 是否有點不務正業?

我相信一定可以通過紀錄委員會, 定為一類也一定冇問題, 請開始寫文投香港鳥類報告, 最緊要點名何人先指出天上有這猛禽, 重要照片也要列出攝影者。

補充一句, 周六在濕地公園的學界觀鳥比賽, 有隊伍報上蒼鷹, 可惜不幸被裁判團(包括大使和我在內)否決, 不然米埔的發現就俾人截咗糊喇。

張浩輝

[ Last edited by HFCheung at 15/12/2011 20:35 ]
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 15/12/2011 20:50

Dear all

One misunderstanding about my comments is that I talked about a lot of young birders who were also
(more) skilful in photographic identification (than field identification skills). I didn't say they did not birdwatch and relied solely/heavily on cameras.

So far I have been humble enough to re-examine my words as well as others. Can those who are hurt and have retorted against non-existent personal attacks do the same? Perhaps I should attempt to write even better.

S L Tai
Author: msamuel    Time: 15/12/2011 22:07

Congratulations, Peter.  Great find.
Author: thinfor    Time: 16/12/2011 13:58

To Mr Tai,

First of all, thanks for your long reply.

Actually, I don't want to give you feedback for your last 2 messages in this thread.  It's already out of the gist of this thread.  My second message in this thread already said  "I regarded this post as an ID with the help of some record shots".

But then I was puzzled why "commenting on trends and the present general birding situation" occurred in this thread?  Was that relevant?  If it did, why not it was a separate thread?  Or why the comment was specifically present in this thread?  Everyone was trying hard to ID this bird, solely.

Of course, being an experienced birder like you, Mr Tai, you should have your reason(s) so I carefully read your message to follow your logic.

Please review what you commented quoted below (I think you did, as you said in the reply):
It must be emphasized here birdwatching is much more than action with electronic-assisted devices. Proper knowledge and experience of birdwatching is of paramount importance. Modern people tend to pay little attention to that importance and focus on the application of photographic devices almost alone. As photgraphic skills take top priority, their progression in birwatching skills and anything touching ornithology lag far behind. Also, photographic activities makes birders sedentary, diminishing greatly birdwatching's athletic aspects.

I reckoned that the above was your arguments.   In your #27 message, you said those arguments "are only commenting on the present trend of shifting birdwatching to bird-photographing which has its obvious and serious shortcomings of which I have listed some only".  I really did not understand indeed so I asked "why such a straightforward ID using just help of a few record photos" would bring you this idea on your mind specifically, not the other common ID posts?  I don't repeat the situation when that bird was found (previous posts have already said so).  At that moment, in order to collect as much information and details as the observers could, taking record shots were instincts because it's the fastest way.  BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL NOT DO NON-PHOTO BIRD RECORDS, NO MATTER CAMERAS ARE PRESENT OR NOT!  As an ex-birdwatching course classmate, I have been learnt to record all my birding results, at least my limited observations as I was green.  Birdwatching course leaders also convey this idea to fellow classmates all the time.  Your idea that "To be able to fully identify a bird, photos are just not enough" has been well addressed.  May I ask whether the above makes any sense to you?    

Mr Tai, did you still remember the times when you started birdwatching with very scarce resources and no experiences?  Binoculars not in good condition, birds flushed in less than 1 second, birds calling but never recognized where and what they were.  All the beginners were desperate and frustrated because THEY STILL LACK SKILLS AND EXPERIENCES FOR OBSERVATION.  Every tiny bit of this kind of frustration has built up in observers' minds.  Someone might fail to have interests.  But how about a shot that served as an encouragement?  It is an element that encourage them to observer more and get the birds' details in the photo.  Visual demonstration is undoubtedly a very effective way in birdwatching, combined with other elements like detailed descriptions and sound clips.

I really don't think that bird photographing brings negative outcomes as you said.  At least, your consideration of this NG also bases on the photos in the book!  Please understand that your inverse of transposition that "if don't take photos, good observation skills, if take photos, bad observation skills" IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE.  On the other hand, I noticed that if one is not observant and care about birds' habitat and behavior, one hardly can take good bird photos.  Bird photographers also spend their time to know about birds.  That's why they can take good shots.  Before they press the shutter, they observe and watch the birds even longer than a common birdwatcher does!  Your above transposition has somehow indirectly labelled those bird photographers AS WELL AS good birdwatchers to be non-skillful, "far lag behind" birdwatchers (do you think this would be a criticism?).  This is, what I recognized, the misunderstanding that you have shown in your message.

BTW, Mr Tai, frankly, have you ever birdwatched through a DC screen from a lens or a telescope?  It doesn't make any difference at all (except you watch thru an eyepiece not a screen for normal birdwatching).  You still can observe anything that a common birdwatcher can observe, just with the advanatge that you can also take a shot for whatever purposes.  As AJohn said, "this thread actually shows the importance of the combined approach".  If you think it's different, it's just you're not getting used to it.  Soon you will if you try.  Many observers just treat their DC with long lens as a telescope to spot the birds with binoculars for shorter distances.  They can still follow the birds nicely and observe behaviors.  Do you get the word 'combined'?  

For your comment "talked about a lot of young birders who were also (more) skilful in photographic identification (than field identification skills). I didn't say they did not birdwatch and relied solely/heavily on cameras."   I think this is also your misunderstanding as well.  For young birders nowadays, photographic ID can be well practised all the time and this experience can be surely fastly accumulated.  Field identification needs more practical experiences that surely builds longer.  Very trivial.  But that also DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEIR FIELD IDENTIFICATION WILL NOT GROW AS WELL AS PHOTOGRAPHIC ID.  All the things start from ABC.  In kindergartens, kids learn how to ID animals like giraffe, kangeroo and rhinoceros in books only.  Are all parents able to take them for field identification?!  If someone loves birdwatching, their sense will grow and they know how important field ID is.  If they don't, it may contribute to many reasons but not just because they do photographic ID.  Same transposition logic problem as above.

Finally, what you said "of those who participated here I found none who are experts of the bird in question. A majority opinion has been reached solely because there has been good luck of the presence of a crow. Other than that, nobody has been given us a comprehensive and convincing analysis."
It looks contradicting because in your message you said "However other points in favour of it being a NG not mentioned by others are: a) pronounced head protrusion b) heavy body keel".  From this comment, I supposed you did see some NG supporting points that were NOT on size, like:
1) white strpe over the eye (from sdavid)
2) bold eye patch (from sdavid)
3) curved, trailing edges to the wings (from sdavid)
4) it looks much bulkier then most Sparrowhawks (from kmatthew)
5) tail is rather short compare to Sparrowhawks (from kmatthew)
Compared with two of my bird books, we nearly hit all the main features (including your pronounced head protrusion), disregarding the flying behavior that should only be noticed by observers themselves.  Ironically, both books said the size may be quite a problem as males and females vary.  So were the photos just nice enough to strengthen our guess for NG?  

To conclude, I examined and just agreed on your words that present general birding situation involves more photos.  But as the reason I mentioned above, I think this combined approach has facilitated our birdwatching much.  I suppose we all love to see we have more birding records and hence encourage public to cherish our natural wildlife.  As long as the photographers are educated to know how to take photos without making too much interefence with the birds, I hold the above view.  

From 鬼谷子·本經符, 言多必有數短之處. Precise and concise may do well if you attempt to write even better.  Just my humble 2 cents.  
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 16/12/2011 21:20

Dear Thinfor

I'm curious if you would kindly tell me your real name so that I can address you properly.

If you just casually read the contents of the previous contributors to this thread (?) again, you will
surely find there have been out-of-context comments like betting on his previous good experiences and
doubts and disappointment about his records being disregared. Further more, this thread has Dr Cheung's
praise of the power of electronic-assisted birdwatching and Mr Yu Yat Tung (wrong spelling?)'s short
comments. Lastly here we have Matthew's quotation of Dr Dewey's saying on teaching although I talked about learning about birds? Do they all bear direct relevance to the identification of the bird in question? Answer me. We humans are emotional as well as rational. As I am not presenting a mathematical
solution, so why should I make my comment logical all the way? Anyhow, I should be grateful if you would
kindly find from my words any self-contradictions.

If you care to note, my first comment about the bird is all in point form which gives pros and cons
though my conclusion is vastly unpopular and consequently gets me unwarranted verbal attacks.

I couldn't have cared less about such attacks. I reach my present state of being for what I am as a birder is quite hard won (which is largely self-taught and I have been wise enough to follow good birders, notably Paul Leader and John Edge and various book authors.

Let me end here with an advice. Photograph taking and bird observation making use of all you senses (I say all your senses) are quite different. Making a good balance between the two is quite hard. You see,
Geoff Welch (wrong spelling?) once said in the forum here that he had more than once at a loss as which to pick up, his pairs of binoculars or his camera. And Geoff is by all means a good birder. Of course, to me at least binoculars are far more enjoyable and exciting but photos are surely one of the most accurate means to depict a bird for records. One British lord, who is an eminent Victorian foreign minister, enjoyed birding with unaided eyes all his life without chasing after rarities, just like C Y Lam our president. At the moment I am enjoying both. But one thing, I will think twice when I want to go for the bird. The cost and the benefits I might get may turn out quite unbalanced. I am now just half of a twitcher.

To reach my present state of intelligence, one certainly needs more than a fair share of natural endowments and some fortunate encounters. Do you have both? Good luck to you.

S L Tai
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 16/12/2011 21:43

Dear Thinfor

Kwai Kuok Chi is quite wrong. Shakespeare produced some thirty plays and every one is a literary gem by all standards. Sir Winston S Churchill gave five years of war speeches, some of them are quite long. And by them and a few British fighter pilots he saved Great Britain from Nazi conquest and shortened human suffering as a result. Speak less and talk carefully is a good advice for mediocrities. And I don't consider my pieces here too long. Every sentence carries at least one point. No repetition.

S L Tai
Author: thinfor    Time: 17/12/2011 02:12

To Mr Tai,

I think right before your message #18, we, at least, talked about NG (may not point to features for every word).  What I said "So far, I regarded this post as an ID with the help of some record shots" was on message #19, right after yours.  This was the time when I tried to read your message and follow your logic.  Is that clear? How come should I know the content of the threads in the future?  

I am very interested to know why logic is only applied to mathematics but not daily life events, such as this.  That's why misunderstanding happens when members read, follow your logic and try to understand your thoughts but what they understand is not what you intend to express.

I couldn't notice any 'unwarranted verbal attacks'.  I guess this referred to mine?  My apologies to this if you think this is offensive.  Yet I've already expressed my idea and I still made the judgement open ended upon decision of RC, clearly said.

I agree that making a good balance between photograph taking and bird observation is quite hard but that doesn't mean impossible.  I notice many birdwatchers as well as photographers observe the birds for the first moment until they find satisfactory and then distribute some of the rest of time, if the bird is still there, for photo shots.  Let me give you a humble advice too.  Everyone's capability is different and one will grow up and see how one judges oneself to utilize one's abilities.  I am not sure whether I can do both well (I have no money to equip photographing devices) but I am sure many of my friends do make a good balance on that.  They have well demonstrated to me.  

Moreover, I'm not sure whether I have both what you said "fair share of natural endowments and some fortunate encounters".  Before I started birdwatching, I always spent my time to hike all parts of HK and touch the beautiful countryside and wildlife.  Plants, insects, animals, birds, rocks, caves, beaches, stars, climate, etc, as long as the subjects are related to nature, I am very interested in it.  Over 20 years of hiking experiences, I'm very used to touch the wild without any help of electronic devices, unless a camera for record shots.  My general idea to birdwatching as well as nature, what you may refer to 'intelligence', may not be as simple and naive as you imagine.    However, at least, I will not doubt or judge any birdwatchers' ideas or behaviours until I know him/her well.  Good luck to you too.

About your 2nd reply.  I finally recognized that your Kwai Kuok (Kuk?) Chi was 鬼谷子.

You like to express judgements, I guess? I don't think 鬼谷子is always right or wrong but in any occasion whether some wordings like I quoted are useful and meaningful, I will take it and store it in my 'database'.  My words, '2 cents', are precise and concise.  If that 2 cents is 'too less' for you, just ignore it, no problem.  Actually, my second reply, to other members, may be also lengthy.  But, as you said, since I have to make you understand why we have misunderstanding in this thread, it might be the shortest that I could do..."I don't consider my pieces here too long".

I think you have made an irrelevant counterexample for what 鬼谷子said.  The 言 in 言多必有數短之處, that I understand, means the interaction among people at the same moment.  The plays Shakespeare has written are an art.  The interaction is not the same as above.  You feel what Shakespeare plays have given to you but you will not express your thoughts to Shakespeare at the same time (at least Shakespeare doesn't acknowledge).  But comes down to it, what does this example indicate?  I can also quote 易經 and 道德經 that are short enough and they are also gems for philosophy to support myself.  The point is that my quote is not a 全稱命題 (universal proposition).  So a counterexample is not necessarily given to disprove this proposition.  So have you recognized 言多必有數短之處 now?  That "2 cents", take it or not take it, your choice.  I remembered your quote from Confucius, "內省不咎，乎何憂何懼 ", If you think this advice is not appropriate, why bother (何憂何懼) to think of an example?  

Even from your last message, you are taking risk to express that "Speak less and talk carefully is a good advice for mediocrities".  I regard that is a statement and our readers' common logic applies again.  I also feel that mediocrities is not a word of praise.  Humans can be emotional but one should be responsible for what one said.  I think some members here may speak less and talk carefully but they are not mediocrities at all.  Please come back to the main track and just discuss/argue the points that we both have expressed.  Such statement is not necessarily shown here.  I don't mind being said to be a mediocre.  But please let other members alone.  Do you finally know why misunderstanding usually happens in your messages in this thread because you quote 全稱命題 (universal proposition) in an inappropriate situaton?  My humble 2 cents again, forget it if you don't agree. It's your choice.

I think I have to end my reply here.  We should both be considerate as most of the members do not expect such unrelated lengthy arguments in the thread about NG that may be a HKF.  I keep my fingers crossed and will congratulate this with my friends.

BTW, I'm very curious too why you asked my real name?  It's clearly shown in the signature at the foot of each of my message.  PC, though are electronic devices, do save us time for achieving more tasks, agree?  Maybe you can use the signature function as well.  Also, if you still refer to our discussion, we'd better leave here and just use P.M. offered in this forum.  Least disturbance to other members.  Will that be a win-win-win situation for you, me and our fellow members?
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 18/12/2011 20:17

Dear Manson

Thank you for telling me your name.

S L Tai

NB I think it's time for me to stop strutting and fretting upon this stage.
   From now on I won't be heard here anymore.
Author: wgeoff    Time: 19/12/2011 07:23

I hope that means just from this thread and not the website as a whole.

I would not like to lose one of our website characters, as well as interesting reports from Shing Mun.
Author: lmunchong    Time: 19/12/2011 11:46

I agree with Mr. Welch.
Author: thinfor    Time: 19/12/2011 13:48

Though I'm the one who argued with Mr Tai, it's just limited to the views expressed here in this spread.

I also read every birding record posted by Mr Tai, like other birding records from other fellow members.  I must say thank you for anyone who would like to share with their birding records here in this forum.
Author: EricB    Time: 23/12/2011 07:40

Sorry I’ve entered this debate late. Thanks for the great photos of an adult male Northern Goshawk.
I think we watch birds for several simple pleasures
1.        The aesthetic pleasure derived from seeing a bird
2.        The intellectual pleasure from categorizing /identifying it

It is clear to me that these 2 objectives are competing for the same (usually) brief window of opportunity particularly when viewing an unfamiliar raptor (you don’t need me to tell you they move quickly and don’t usually hang around).
So much of it is dependent on shape and size; difficult things to be definitive about.
If you are familiar with the raptor you can probably do it easily, most of the time.
If you are abroad, or the raptor is uncommon/rare you are likely to fail in nailing the identification without a photo. The reason being that you are not getting prolonged views and you are extremely unlikely to be prepared adequately because even the best of field guides are not good enough for the complex plumage moults and subtleties of field characteristics.
Take this series of photos of a Harrier I watched on and off for 90 minutes in Northumberland in November. On closer inspection of the photos it seems to have mixed features of a juvenile Hen and Pallid. Subtleties that were impossible to be definitive about in the field.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eye ... 217/in/photostream/


The bottom line is simple. If you really want to id an unfamiliar raptor you are better off getting a digital image.

a. If you are alone and you think you have something good and not barn door (like a  Black shouldered Kite) , you are never really likely to take good enough notes unless you really have a photographic memory and  the record is never going to be more than a probable unless you produce some sort of digital evidence.

b. If you are lucky enough to be in a group where other people are keen to capture a photographic record; a lot of us would opt to enjoy the moment and let our kind people with the big lenses do the hard stuff, which allows us to id it unequivocally later.
This is clearly progress - in the very old days, the bird would physically just be blasted out of the sky! Times have thankfully moved on.

Eric

P.S. Mr T  - I hope you’re still out there in cyber space. You’ve clearly had your feelings bruised from the debate, just another sign of the passion we share for our pastime. We’d all hate not to hear your slant on things.

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Author: EricB    Time: 24/12/2011 10:12

Here's a distant dot from my recent Philippine trip. This was seen on Palawan and although I narrowed it down to 3 species ( 1 of which doesn't occur on Palawan!)and it had a v.striking wing shape- I was never going to be certain about the id. Now I'm pretty happy it's a Changeable.

E

[ Last edited by EricB at 24/12/2011 10:15 ]

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