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Subject: Long Valley Autumn 2013 塱原秋 [Print This Page]
Author: HKBWS Ivan    Time: 13/08/2013 14:56     Subject: Long Valley Autumn 2013 塱原秋

12-08-2013 Early Morning
Pintail/Swinhoe's Snipe (Maybe the earliest record this autumn)
Besra
Author: ajohn    Time: 13/08/2013 17:49

I also had Pintail/Swinhoe's Snipe at Mai Po today.
Author: HKBWS Ivan    Time: 20/08/2013 11:49

20-08-2013 very hot morning

Eurasian Curlew 1 (should be LV 1st)
Pintail / Swinhoe's Snipe 2
Author: louislee    Time: 25/08/2013 23:41

2013-08-25
Hot afternoon

Yellow Bittern 1
Common Kingfisher 5
Pintail/Swinhoe's Snipe 3
Barn Swallow 4
Black Drongo 2







Author: Ronaldo    Time: 2/09/2013 07:43

2013-09-01 morning

Cinnamon Bittern 1x
Yellow Bittern 2x
Red-rumped Swallow 2x
Brown Shrike 1x
Plaintive Cuckoo 2x
Pacific Golden Plover 1x
Author: lngayee    Time: 13/09/2013 15:18

13 Sept 2013 morning

Pintail/Swinhoe's Snipe >5
Common Snipe 1
Pacific Golden Plover 1
Golden-headed Cisticola 1
Author: ckuifai    Time: 21/09/2013 21:24

2013 09 21 am
Yellow Breasted Bunting 黃胸鵐 x 1

Author: kkchang168    Time: 24/09/2013 00:23

2013-09-23 3:30pm to 5:30pm

Little Ringed Plover 2
Pintail/Swinhoe's Snipe 1+
Black Drongo 4
Red-billed Starling 1
Daurian Starling 4
White-shouldered Starling 1
White-rumped Munia 30+
Scaly-breasted Munia




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Author: louislee    Time: 2/10/2013 09:57

2013.10.01
Morning 10:00 - 11:30 a.m.

Little Egret many
Common Teal 4
Greater Painted Snipe 2
Little Ringed Plover 1
Pacific Golden Plover 2
Red-throated Pipit 2
Red-backed Shrike 1
Black Drongo many
White-rumped munia many


Common Teal


Pacific Golden Plover


Egrets


Red-throated Pipit


White-rumped Munia


Greater Painted Snipe


Little Ringed Plover


Red-backed Shrike

[ Last edited by louislee at 2/10/2013 09:59 ]
Author: Ronaldo    Time: 2/10/2013 21:31

Long Valley 2nd October early morning visit

Red-backed Shrike x1
Red Turtle Dove x1
Oriental Reed Warbler x1
Red-necked Phalarope x1
Pallas's Grasshopper Warbler x1 (seen by James only)
Author: kkchang168    Time: 2/10/2013 23:46

Long Valley 2nd October 11:00am to 1:00pm

Common Snipe 1

Oriental Turtle Dove 1

Stejneger's Stonechat 1 (immature)

Citrine Wagtail 1

Eastern Yellow Wagtail 1

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Author: thinfor    Time: 12/10/2013 12:02

A very nice birding day in LV on 9Oct, though we did not see many migrants. (and sorry for the late post.  Photos taken by Derek.)

Birding time 觀鳥時間: 0930-1300, 1400-1630
Weather 天氣: Sunny, still quite hot (26-31C)
Humidity 濕度: Relatively dry

Little Egret x2+
Great Egret x1+
Cattle Egret (many)
White Wagtail (many)
Yellow Wagtail (many, with at least one macronyx ssp)
Citrine Wagtail x1 (possibly 2, but one not sure)


White-bellied Sea Eagle x1 (immature, quite unexpected)


Black-eared Kite x1
Long-tailed Shrike x1
Black-winged Stilt (many)
Common Snipe x10+ (nearly all on HKBWS ponds)
Common Sandpiper x1+
Wood Sandpiper (many)
Little Ringed Plover x4+
White-breasted Waterhen x2
Eurasian Wryneck x1 (stayed quite a long time on poles and wires)


Japanese Quail x1 (flushed)
Zitting Cisticola x3+


Arctic Warbler x1


Spotted Dove (many)
Common Myna x2


Crested Myna (many)
Common Magpie x2
Plaintive Cuckoo x1 (not seen by me)


Greater Coucal x1
Asian Koel x1 (F)
Barn Swallow x1
House Swift x1
Eurasian Tree Sparrow (many)
Richard's Pipit (many)


Red-throated Pipit (many)


Olive-backed Pipit x1
Magpie Robin x1
Stejneger's Stonechat (many)
Yellow-bellied Prinia (few)
Plain Prinia x1
Oriental Reed Warbler x1 (not seen by me)


Common Tailorbird x1
Black Drongo (many)
Black-collared Starling (many)
Red-whiskered Bulbul (many)
Yellow-breasted Bunting x2+


Little Bunting x1


Scaly-breasted Munia (few)
White-rumped Munia (many)

[ Last edited by thinfor at 12/10/2013 15:09 ]
Author: Ronaldo    Time: 20/10/2013 20:37

Friday 18th morning
Japanese Quail x1
Eurasian Wryneck x1
Eurasian Skylark x2
Oriental Reed Warbler x1
Eastern Water Rail x1
Yellow-breasted Bunting x1
Little Bunting x1
Silky Starling x1

Saturday 19th morning
Japanese Quail x1
Citrine Wagtail x2
Eurasian Skylark x3
Oriental Reed Warbler x1

Sunday 20th morning
Baillon's Crake (not seen by me)
Red Turtle Dove x4
Black-browed Reed Warbler x4
Peregrine x1
Citrine Wagtail x1
Eurasian Skylark x1
Oriental Reed Warbler x1
Yellow-breasted Bunting x1

[ Last edited by Ronaldo at 20/10/2013 20:39 ]
Author: Jonathmartinez    Time: 21/10/2013 00:19

thinfor,
the picture of your Richard's Pipit is very interesting, it is a first winter bird that had renew some of its median covert, and the pattern of this fresh MC looks perfect for Blyth's Pipit in my opinion.
Adult Richard's Pipit shows very pointed triangular dark center of MC, where Blyth's Pipit shows very square one and more clear cut, this can only be said on first winter until they start to moult their MC, and only shape of the central MC are reliable as it is the case on your bird.
Other features seems to fit well Blyth's Pipit, short and pointed bill, shorter tail, shorter necked and better proportionned bird compare with Richard's Pipit,  but this has to be taken with caution with "sinensis" ssp of RP.
Opinion of other is welcome, but to me it is one.

All the best,

Jonathan
Author: thinfor    Time: 22/10/2013 18:45

Thanks for your comment, Jonathan.  I'm trying to get some more photos from my friends and hope a more in-depth ID study can be carried out.

Actually, I admit that I am not skillful enough to separate between Richard's and Blyth's pipit in wild field.  So usually I did not even attempt to do this unless there existed some photos like this one.

Please note that the bill might not be short enough as seen in the photo as you can see that the head was a bit pointing towards the camera so the bill might look apparently shorter.
Author: thinfor    Time: 22/10/2013 18:57

Birding date 觀鳥日子: 21Oct
Birding time 觀鳥時間: 0945-1300, 1330-1630
Weather 天氣: Sunny, still quite hot (25-29C)
Humidity 濕度: Relatively dry

Little Egret (few)
Great Egret (few)
Grey Heron x1
White Wagtail (many, 1 ocularis ssp seen)
Yellow Wagtail (many, with at least 2 macronyx ssp)
Black-eared Kite x1
Common Buzzard x1
Falcon sp x1
Long-tailed Shrike x2+
Brown Shrike x1
Black-winged Stilt (many)
Common Snipe (few)
Wood Sandpiper (many)
Little Ringed Plover (many)
Grey-headed Lapwing x1
Common Moorhen x10+
White-breasted Waterhen x2
Eurasian Wryneck x1
Zitting Cisticola x1
Spotted Dove (many)
Crested Myna (many)
Common Magpie x2
White-collared Crow x4+
Asian Koel x1 (M)
Barn Swallow x1
House Swift x1+
Eurasian Tree Sparrow (many)
Richard's Pipit (few)
Red-throated Pipit (few)
Magpie Robin (few)
Stejneger's Stonechat (many)
Yellow-bellied Prinia (few)
Plain Prinia (few)
Oriental Reed Warbler x2+
Common Tailorbird x1
Black Drongo (few)
Black-collared Starling (many)
White-cheeked Starling x52+ (perching together on a single wire)
Red-bill Starling x2+
Red-whiskered Bulbul (few)
Chinese Bulbul (few)
Yellow-breasted Bunting x1
Scaly-breasted Munia (few)
White-rumped Munia (many)

[ Last edited by thinfor at 23/10/2013 22:11 ]
Author: thinfor    Time: 23/10/2013 23:58

As requested, I post more photos further for the possible Blyth's pipit taken on 9Oct.  Again, thanks for my friend Derek for the photos.

Photo 1


Photo 2


Photo 3


Photo 4


Photo 5



Actually, more than one pipit was perching on the spot.  This should be another individual when compared with the median converts.  Any comments are welcome.
Photo 6


[ Last edited by thinfor at 28/10/2013 21:27 ]
Author: JamesLambo    Time: 24/10/2013 08:40

According to Robson (2000), Brazil (2009), and Svensson (2009), Richard's has a long hindclaw, much longer than Blyth'. The hindclaw on the photographed bird is extremely long. Which would make it a Richard's. In addition, Svensson describes the median covert differences as a "tendency", by which I guess he means there is some overlap.

Regards

James
Author: ac130    Time: 24/10/2013 22:34

2013-Oct-24 afternoon (sunny)

Common Kingfisher 2
Great Egret
Little Egret
Stejneger's Stonechat
Green Sandpiper
Wood Sandpiper
Little Ringed Plover
White-breasted Waterhen
Masked Laughingthrush
White Wagtail
Yellow Wagtail
Dusky Shrike
Oriental Magpie Robin
Spotted Dove
Common Magpie 2
Crested Myna
Common Myna 2
Black-winged Stilt
Dusky Warbler
Chinese Pond Heron
Common Moorhen 9
Black-collared Starling
Little Grebe
Eurasian Tree Sparrow
Red-whiskered Bulbul
Chinese Bulbul
White-rumped Munia
Long-tailed Shrike
Scaly-breasted Munia
Richard's Pipit 2
Plain Prinia
Yellow-bellied Prinia
Great Cormorant
Common Teal
Japanese Quail 2
Yellow-breasted Bunting 5
Zitting Cisticola
Collared Crow 2
Grey Heron


Citrine Wagtail
Little Bunting 2
White-cheeked Starling 11
Eurasian Skylark 3



Buff-bellied Pipit 1 not sure
Oriental Turtle Dove


Unknown Snipe 1


total: 47 species

correct me if i'm wrong, please.

[ Last edited by ac130 at 24/10/2013 22:39 ]

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Author: John Holmes    Time: 25/10/2013 08:24     Subject: Snipe ?

A good list for the day !

"Unknown Snipe" is Common Snipe
Author: ac130    Time: 25/10/2013 11:13

Thanks, John.
Author: Jonathmartinez    Time: 25/10/2013 11:38

So only the first 3 pictures posted by Manson concern the same bird that to me is a Blyth's Pipit, all the other one are different birds and all Richard's Pipit.

Regarding to James comments :
"According to Robson (2000), Brazil (2009), and Svensson (2009), Richard's has a long hindclaw, much longer than Blyth'. The hindclaw on the photographed bird is extremely long. Which would make it a Richard's. In addition, Svensson describes the median covert differences as a "tendency", by which I guess he means there is some overlap."

On Pipit and Wagtails from Alström (2003), measurments of hindclaw is given for RP (including ssp sinensis) and BP, and show a clear overlap, RP (including sinensis) is 11,2-23,9 and BP is 8,8-15,4.
On our concerned bird, I won't said that the hind claw is particularly long or short, so in my opinion this feature is not diagnostic as it could be in the overlap zone.
It is said that BP Hindclaw is more curved than RP, I found it hard to judge, but the LV bird is quite curved.



In the same book, it is said that : " first winter can only be identified to species by the pattern of the median coverts if at least one or two central ones have been renewed". A plate with the variation of shape of the dark center of median covert of both species is given, and the bird from LV show a very typical BP median covert shape. That is in my opinion by far the best feature to ID them.

Especially when other features fit wel :
- the bill shape for BP have to be more short and pointed than RP and with a deep base, I found myself that this vary a lot in RP so it has to be taken with caution but the following link allow to make his own opinion :
here some links of several RP for comparaison :
http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1
http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1
here some links of several BP :
http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1
http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1

- The overall shape of BP remind more a small pipit species, and is better proportionned than RP, this is clearly shown between the different pictures posted by Manson, but it is better appreciated in the field.

- upperparts of BP is more heavily streaked and contrasted than BP, but RP sinensis may also be the same. And there is some other subtle plumage differencies hard to judge on this picture, light ears covert slighty more rufous than upperpart, and upperparts more greyish tan RP, but hard to judge on worn bird.

- BP have shorter tarsus than RP, but there is a very thin overlap. But by comparing the different birds in Manson post, the first bird show clearly shorter tarsus than birds in other pics

- an interesting feature is the difference on the moulting time, it seems that in october, many BP would have not replace any or very few median covert, where RP would have replace more of them. This is more an indication than a feature, but in this bird it fit better BP than RP.
This is also in my opinion why Blyth's Pipit are overlooked here in the South, because in absence of any median covert moulted then the only reliable feature is the call.
Author: kkoel    Time: 25/10/2013 16:34

To me this bird looks like an ordinary first winter Richard's Pipit especially with the multiple nice photos taken.

- bill is still too thick for Blyth's
- crown and back not well streaked
- supercilium long and contrasting
- median covert pattern not as contrasting as in Blyth's (interesting to see how with an alteration of photo angle, the dark centre of the adult median coverts are actually triangular. Also the color of median covert tip is buff, not whitish as in Blyth's)
- claw is too long
- tail is too long
- jizz is not reminiscent of smaller Pipits with long neck and long tail
Author: Jonathmartinez    Time: 25/10/2013 21:50

I don't like these long arguing but I'm in, so here we go :

"- bill is still too thick for Blyth's"

I don't see any difference between Manson bird and the one on the following link : http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1
"- crown and back not well streaked"

per my understanding all the plumage differencies are quite subtle and some RP may show similar pattern to BP, especially RP sinensis

"- supercilium long and contrasting"
I'm not quite sure this is diagnostic, especially if compare with other pics on the web, this one for example : http://orientalbirdimages.org/se ... _ID=&pagesize=1
to me the one on this pic is even more long and contrasting than the LV bird

"- median covert pattern not as contrasting as in Blyth's (interesting to see how with an alteration of photo angle, the dark centre of the adult median coverts are actually triangular. Also the color of median covert tip is buff, not whitish as in Blyth's)"
I think I haven't gave enough details about the only adult median covert can be seen, because in my opinion only this feather allow to ID this bird correctly. BP adult median covert are first more clear cut and lack the blury edge RP median covert are showing. Secondly fresh moulted BP median covert are not whitish but pale buffy where fresh RP median covert are more rufous, this is clearly shown between the different birds pics Manson has posted, especially the 6th picture. There is clearly a color difference between this two birds on tip of fresh median covert. Secondly the shape of the adult median covert that are more square shaped on BP and triangular on RP, this can appear a bit subbtle on this pic, but again by comparing the shape of the different pics posted by Manson, the shape of fresh MC of  the first bird differs totally from the other birds. But thirdly and more important the small tip of the dark center of the median covert do not reach the tip of the MC and leave a large buffy area between the dark center tip and the MC tip, where in RP it the dark center tip usually go much closier to the MC tip. This is again shown very well and is in my opinion diagnostic of Blyth's. Just try to find any pics of RP with such MC pattern.

"- claw is too long"
As said earlier there is a zone of overlap between both sp, to me it looks just a bit longer than the hind toe and therefor can not be consider as very long.

"- tail is too long"
just by doing some quick comparaison between lenght of tertial and lenght of tail behind wing tip in picture of both sp taken with quite the same angle show that this bird is quite short tail.

"- jizz is not reminiscent of smaller Pipits with long neck and long tail"
this is usually hard to judge on picture since it hardly depend on bid posture at the time the picture was taken, but the difference on the lenght of tarsus is to me quite obvious between each picture posted by Manson.

For sure a nice recording of the call would have taken any doubt, but to me I'm still pretty convinced that it is a Blyth.

All the best,

Jonathan
Author: thinfor    Time: 26/10/2013 13:21

Birding date 觀鳥日子: 25Oct
Birding time 觀鳥時間: 1000-1330
Weather 天氣: Sunny and breezy(22-27C)
Humidity 濕度: Dry

Little Grebe x1
Little Egret (few)
Great Egret (few)
Grey Heron x2
White Wagtail (many)
Yellow Wagtail (many)
Common Buzzard x1
Falcon sp x1
Black-winged Stilt (many)
Common Snipe (many)
Common Sandpiper x1
Wood Sandpiper (many)
Little Ringed Plover 4+
Common Moorhen x9
Zitting Cisticola x1
Spotted Dove (many)
Crested Myna (many)
Common Magpie x2
Barn Swallow (few)
House Swift (few)
Eurasian Tree Sparrow (many)
Richard's Pipit x1+
Red-throated Pipit x1+
Magpie Robin (few)
Stejneger's Stonechat (many)
Yellow-bellied Prinia (heard)
Oriental Reed Warbler x1
Black Drongo x1
Black-collared Starling (many)
Red-whiskered Bulbul (few)
Chinese Bulbul (few)
Little Bunting x1
Scaly-breasted Munia (few)
White-rumped Munia (many)
Eurasian Skylark x3
Author: HKBWS Ivan    Time: 28/10/2013 14:35

28-10-2013 Morning
Tundra Bean Goose x4
Eurasian Skylark x4
Chestnut-eared Bunting x2
Yellow-breasted Bunting x6
Little Bunting
Grey-headed Lapwing
Oriental Honey Buzzard
Eastern Buzzard
Author: JamesLambo    Time: 28/10/2013 17:18

On another look, seems that the first 3 photos of the 6 are one bird, and the last 3 photos are a different bird (or birds). The colours of the median coverts change, and the first one has white edges to the central covert, the other one buff. Eyestripe and supercilium clearly different. So different birds.

On second look, hind claw in first 3 photos isn't all that long ... well, it's not super-long anyhow.

I'm leaning towards Blyth's Pipit too now.

These are really tough birds to ID.

James
Author: thinfor    Time: 28/10/2013 22:30

I would like to provide more information about the photos taken and hopefully this may help on the ID.  Please note that I have named those photos as 1-6 in the previous message.  For below, I will call the first photo as the original.  Actually there were more than 7 photos but those 6 photos were distinct enough.

All 7 photos were taken on the same day from time 14:56:19 to 14:58:42, according to the exif data from the photos.

They were fallen in 5 main time periods:
14:56:19 - 14:56:25 (when photos 1 and 2 were taken at 14:56:19 and 14:56:22 resp)
14:57:05 (when photo 3 was taken)
14:57:24 - 14:57:27 (when photos 4 and 5 were taken at 14:57:24 and 14:57:27 resp)
14:58:00 - 14:58:01 (when the original was taken)
14:58:42 (when photo 6 was taken)

From what I observed on that day, there were at least 3 pipits and they did change their perching positions while flying back and forth between the ground and the wire.  As such, there existed a chance that there might be 5 different birds among the photos.  

However, from comparing the individuals, I have the following conclusions:
(1) Photos 1 to 3 should be the same individual.  They looked like identical to me.  The exif data also quite supported it.
(2) Photos 4 and 5 should be the same individual as well, from the appearance and the exif data.
(3) Photos 6, for me, should be a typical Richard's pipit - relatively long tail, long hindclaw, bill shape, etc.
(4) The original, to me, looked like the same individual as that in Photos 1 to 3.

So: If the above are all true, the possible Blyth's was perching on the wire from 14:56:19 to 14:57:05 and 14:58:00 to 14:58:01.  However, please note that a pipit, the one in Photo 4 or 5, appeared as well at nearly exact location.  Since the time between the two periods was just 55 seconds, it's quite likely that the pipit in Photo 4 or 5 was also the same individual, pointing out that all photos excluding Photo 6 should be the same individual.

But, as an observer on that day, I observed those few pipits, so close that I didn't see it through binoculars, and was able to trace their movements.  There existed a possibility that the possible Blyth's left when we took its photos, flew away and perching position being occupied by another pipit.  Then Blyth's came back again.  I still remembered quite clearly they have had such kind of movements since they seemed to stay along with each other at that moment.

That's all for my information given to those interested.  I stop here for all your comments.  Thanks a lot and still feeling a bit unexpected to get a possible Blyth's pipit on a common birding day in LV!

[ Last edited by thinfor at 28/10/2013 22:38 ]
Author: handrew    Time: 29/10/2013 17:27

A good walk around LV this morning produced the usual suspects plus

Black-naped Oriole 1
Yellow-breasted Bunting - several
Little Bunting 1
Chestnut-eared Bunting 1
Oriental Turtle Dove 1
Richard's Pipit 2
Red-throated Pipit - many
A flock of 9 skylarks - this one I believe is Oriental. The light was awful and I was shooting at ISO1600.

Image Attachment: Oriental Skylark.jpg (29/10/2013 17:27, 141.14 KB) / Download count 410
http://hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=16132

Author: Ronaldo    Time: 3/11/2013 19:45

Saturday 2nd November
Black-headed Bunting x1
Chestnut Bunting x1
Chestnut-eared Bunting x1
Little Bunting x1
Yellow-breasted Bunting x5+

Sunday 3rd November
Baillon's Crake x1
Lanceolated Warbler x2

2 Eurasian Skylarks enjoying LV for a few weeks now. 1 Woodcock also seen by others in LV over the past couple of days.
Author: thinfor    Time: 4/11/2013 19:00

Birding date 觀鳥日子: 4Nov
Birding time 觀鳥時間: 1000-1345
Weather 天氣: Cloudy with occasional shower (22-26C)
Humidity 濕度: Humid

Great Cormorant (few)
Little Egret (few)
Great Egret (few)
Grey Heron (few)
Chinese Pond Heron (many)
White Wagtail (many)
Yellow Wagtail (many)
Black-eared Kite x2
Common Buzzard x1
Long-tailed Shrike x2
Little Grebe x2
Common Teal (many)
Black-winged Stilt (many)
Common Snipe (few)
Painted Snipe x3+
Wood Sandpiper (many)
Little Ringed Plover (many)
Grey-headed Lapwing x1
Common Moorhen (many)
White-breasted Waterhen x1
Baillon's Crake x1
Common Kingfisher x1
White-throated Kingfisher x1
Zitting Cisticola x1
Spotted Dove (many)
Crested Myna (many)
Common Magpie x2
Asian Koel x1 (M)
Eurasian Tree Sparrow (many)
Red-throated Pipit x1
Olive-backed Pipit x1
Magpie Robin (few)
Stejneger's Stonechat (many)
Plain Prinia x2
Black Drongo x1
Black-collared Starling (many)
White-cheeked Starling x1
Red-whiskered Bulbul (few)
Chinese Bulbul (few)
Dusky Warbler (few)
Yellow-breasted Bunting x4+
Black-headed Bunting x2
Chestnut-eared Bunting x1 (not 100% sure)
Scaly-breasted Munia (few)
White-rumped Munia (many)
Masked Laughingthrush (few)

[ Last edited by thinfor at 4/11/2013 22:21 ]
Author: wazy    Time: 5/11/2013 09:50     Subject: Nov 3

Dusky Shrike x 1
Author: lchunfai    Time: 28/11/2013 17:04

27/11/2013

Kestrel 1
Grey-headed Lapwing 1
Oriental Turtle Dove
Greater-painted Snipe 35+
Red-rumped Swallow
Bluethroat 1
Yellow-breasted Bunting 3+
Little Bunting
Rustic Bunting 1

Saw the rustic bunting in late afternoon and seems the bird was also here and better photographed today

Author: Ronaldo    Time: 8/12/2013 17:39

Sunday 8th December
Aside from the Bluethroat and Rubythroat
Red-flanked Bluetail x1f
Red-throated Flycatcher x1
Asian Brown Flycatcher x1
Common Kestrel x1
Black Drongo x1
Black-browed Reed Warbler x1
(does black drongo usually winter in HK?)
Author: tmichael    Time: 9/12/2013 19:36

In the past - late 80s, early 90s, when overall this species seemed to be rather commoner than now - we used to see very small numbers in the North-west NT in winter.

Not sure what the position has been in more recent years



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