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Subject: 應否公開稀有鳥類的位置？ Should locations of rarities be publicized? [Print This Page]
Author: twaiyi    Time: 8/10/2008 20:03     Subject: 應否公開稀有鳥類的位置？ Should locations of rarities be publicized?

分割自twaiyi 發表的 Split from twaiyi's 《Red-backed Shrike 紅背伯勞》
Quote:
Original posted by HFCheung at 8/10/2008 17:44
Well done!  I am glad that somebody have the chance of checking it themselves.

This incidence remind me of the same old question of keeping the site of important birds secret.  I am not insisting how this should be done one way or the other.  I am saying that we should have a uniform scale for ourselves and others.  If we want to keep this secret, then I think we better not blame others not to reveal their own secret sites.

HF Cheung
Quote:
Original posted by HFCheung at 8/10/2008 17:44
If we want to keep this secret, then I think we better not blame others not to reveal their own secret sites.
我想我要說一說這一件事，就是一位自稱是香港觀鳥會委員、姓戴的一位先生，昨晚至今天打電話數次來叫我公開此鳥地點。原本也沒有什麼的，但是姓戴的先生今天的說話，實在令我感到非常的反感。竟然說我在此問鳥ID，就有義務必定要告知鳥地點。問我對鳥會沒信心又參加，還說當了鳥會圖書館義工是否有什麼企圖。然後還說我堅決不公開鳥的地點就是違反鳥會宗旨，會在下次開會的時候提出不准我續會。
我真的無法相信鳥會委員會當中會有這種使用這手法來令人說出鳥點的人。
今天我要上課，所以不方便繼續吵下去，便叫他打電話問其他人，最後這位戴先生也有去觀看此鳥。但這並不代表我真的認同這位戴先生，甚至他令我對HKBWS反感、失去信心。
我希望這位戴先生會改善一下他的言詞。

[ Last edited by BWA at 12/10/2008 17:38 ]
Author: 深藍-Owen    Time: 8/10/2008 20:32

雀仔有否聽錯? 你可以看看鳥會的 bulletin. 第一頁的所有委員會委員名單. 沒有一個是姓戴的. 甚至沒一個是 T 字頭的. 希望這個姓戴的人士莫名其妙言論. 不會令鳥會已經越來越少的義工數目雪上加霜.
Author: twaiyi    Time: 8/10/2008 20:45

Quote:
Original posted by 深藍-Owen at 8/10/2008 20:32
雀仔有否聽錯? 你可以看看鳥會的 bulletin. 第一頁的所有委員會委員名單. 沒有一個是姓戴的. 甚至沒一個是 T 字頭的. 希望這個姓戴的人士莫名其妙言論. 不會令鳥會已經越來越少的義工數目雪上加霜. ...
沒有聽錯，昨晚他打來說是鳥會委員會的人，問鳥的地點，我的電話是余日東先生給他，所以說他是可以相信。
戴先生叫我放心告訴鳥地點給他，因鳥會委員會不是那一些會為拍鳥而影響鳥的人，他是沒有相機，也沒有任何鳥攝者電話的人，不用擔心出現數十鳥攝者的情況。還有他表示曾在上屆大會說過鳥攝不當的行為，叫我可以查一下最近鳥會寄來會議記錄，叫我放心公開鳥地點。
至於他是不是委員會的人，我昨晚沒有去查證，因為我相信真的只有高層、委員會等才能獲知我的電話號碼。今天才知道，我被騙了！叫我信心大減！
Author: nlinyau    Time: 8/10/2008 21:06

o甘即係呢位戴先生唔係鳥會委員?
Author: lchunfai    Time: 8/10/2008 21:18

是他說余日東先生給他你的電話還是????, 另外請問你有否問清余日東先生?????

[ Last edited by lchunfai at 8/10/2008 21:20 ]
Author: hpippen    Time: 8/10/2008 21:35

其實今日現場其中幾位已經當面說清楚事情,大家亦明白問題所在,
很多謝雀仔TO講出地點及事情經過,希望大家和氣收場!
Author: HFCheung    Time: 8/10/2008 22:50

I need to apologise for HKBWS if these things really happen.  I need some time to find out myself.  We do have a volunteer name Mr. Tai helping to carry out some duties for HKBWS, but no Executive Committee member called Mr. Tai.  If there is any possible confusion, call the office or to me direcly (6131-8520) to confirm.

I think the decision whether to withhold information of special birds is in the hands of the discoverer.  I will be happy if proper records (such as good photographs) have been collected, and information submitted to HKBWS at a non-sensitive time.  To me, I have not seen the bird yet, and will not force anyone to tell me the information.  I hope members can do the same as well.  If we cannot respect all observers, all of us will be losers at the end.

HF Cheung
Author: HFCheung    Time: 9/10/2008 09:32

I can foresee a very high number of birdwatchers and photographers wishing to see the birds, and that might cause unacceptably high level of disturbance to the bird.  We always say the welfare of the bird goes first.  We need to demonstrate in action what we really mean.  The worry that tens of observers would crowd around the bird for the whole day has already be expressed.  To avoid this, I have the following suggestions to HKBWS members.

1. Reduce the disturbance as much as possible
2. Limit the time that you observe the bird, say to 1-2 hours  
3. Don't release information to people that cannot be trusted
4. Report clear violation of the bird protection law

HF Cheung

[ Last edited by HFCheung at 9/10/2008 13:51 ]
Author: cgeoff    Time: 9/10/2008 09:45

If this person has been bullying the finder of the bird in the way described, then it is time to consider what needs to be done to prevent this in the future. There is no excuse for the kind of behaviour described, and the person responsible should be spoken to by a senior member of the HKBWS and warned about future behaviour.

Geoff
Author: Beetle    Time: 9/10/2008 18:29

Quote:
Original posted by HFCheung at 9/10/2008 09:32
2. Limit the time that you observe the bird, say to 1-2 hours.  
I agree very much with Fai Gor for this point. The suggestion is especially for photographers, I don't think we need superb close-ups.
Author: gary    Time: 9/10/2008 19:43

Quote:
Original posted by cgeoff at 9/10/2008 09:45
If this person has been bullying the finder of the bird in the way described, then it is time to consider what needs to be done to prevent this in the future. There is no excuse for the kind of behavi ...
Speaking as a HKBWS member, the pseudo-executive committee’s enthusiasm on digging out bird location and making it publicized for HKBWS member is much appreciable.  However it is difficult to agree his manner on chasing and bullying the bird finder to divulge the information –which reminds me of mafia! It is bird watcher’s own right to share or conceal bird information  we should respect  though we may act differently.  Speaking frankly, I think most of the experienced bird watcher should had been asked for not telling others bird locations in some occasions.  
The problem of this case is the pseudo-exco was speaking and acting like he was representing HKBWS according to twaiyi. And more seriously, as I can remember, this is not the first time I hear a bird finder annoyed by someone from HKBWS to request him divulging the bird information.
I think the responsible HKBWS chairman has already done something to clarify the case and we hope it will not happen again.
However, being a keen bird watcher, I would not mind to be annoyed, bullied or harassed if I could have such chance.
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 9/10/2008 21:42     Subject: The Red-backed Shrike Affair

Dear all

It is time to speak out so that Ms Twaiyi's revelation will not remain one-sided. As the telephone conversations were private, it was improper to discuss or reveal here in detail. However, some words from Ms Twaiyi I find untrue and serious enough to warrant a proper reply.

First of all, I never when I talked to Ms Twaiyi that I was a member of the executive council of the Society.

Secondly, I never challenged her present membership and her future as a member in the Society.

I persuaded and occasionally reasoned (in retrospect unwise) perhaps to the disgust and certainly having created understanding on the side of Ms Twaiyi. The outcome right now I regard totally regrettable. But the words I used are not coercive, nor the tone I delivered them suggesting high-handedness, least of all Mafia-like.

Good birding to you all.

Tai
Author: tgraham    Time: 10/10/2008 00:36

Whilst I agree with previous posts that it is totally up to the finder of any bird, be it rare or not, whether they share the location to other people personally I don’t understand why they would not want to.

The main reason I have heard are disturbance yet in the UK it is not unknown for 1000 people to turn up at a rare bird at the same time with no adverse effect. In HK if 30 people turned up at the same time that would be unusual. If somebody is deliberately disturbing the bird then there are plenty of forums to name and shame that person as has been done in the past.

From my experience the majority of birdwatchers in HK are very keen to share their finds with fellow birdwatchers even to the extent that special arrangements have been made to access private land the past

Personally if I was lucky enough to find a rare bird I would make every effort to ensure as many people saw and photographed it as possible however is it right that somebody who decided not reveal the location of a rare bird they found goes and see birds other people have found and shared with the birding community.

HK Twitcher
Author: HFCheung    Time: 10/10/2008 13:19

Often, discussions on the BBS quickly turning into unhappy situations because the wordings would often imply someone have done something although in fact they have not.  While I will not want any discussion to stop, I would like to see all of us to make an effort to avoid unnecessary misunderstanding.  I think there is a main issue that need to be reosolved.  That is:

How should we collect information of rare bird location from the finder?  What is the line?  And if the finder request us not to disclose the information to other HKBWS members or the public, should we refuse collecting these information?

There are also other questions as well.  For example, we still need to find out what exactly happened in this case.  Although the relevant parties have expressed their view, if there is any people that can contribute relevant information, please pass that to me or HKBWS office.  I would suggest not to post it on this BBS but that is up to you.

HF Cheung
Author: bkenneth    Time: 10/10/2008 14:28

I guess the bird is long gone now, but would the finder/anyone mind letting me know where it was found?

Thank you very much,

Ken
Author: mchristine    Time: 10/10/2008 14:36     Subject: Guideline on reporting special bird finding

Dear Dr Cheung,

I totally agree with your direction on how to handle the lingering discussion for the above.

Back to basic, all members should have expressed their agreement on the objectives of HKBWS before joining.  "It is to promote the study, appreciation and conservation of birds in Hong Kong.  In addition, the Society also facilitates the exchange of experience and information related to bird watching".  I personally much appreciate the 'knowledge sharing' spirit instilled by the Society.

As an ordinary member in the HKBWS, I would entrust our Chairman and Executive Committee to establish a proper guideline on reporting special bird finding which will 'facilitates the exchange of experience and information related to bird watching' as well as "promote the study, appreciation and conservation of birds in Hong Kong."
Author: bkenneth    Time: 10/10/2008 14:45

This is from the BBC website today (10 October).


A bird never before seen in Britain has turned up 2,000 miles from home near Land's End.

The Alder Flycatcher attracted 200 birdspotters - known as twitchers - to Nanjizal in West Cornwall on Thursday.

The small creature is normally to be found in the wetlands of northern South America, where it usually winters.

Expert ringers have been given a licence to catch the bird in a net for further study before quickly releasing it back into the wild.

The twitchers, alerted by text messages, travelled from all over Britain, including Yorkshire and Tyneside, to photograph the unique visitor.

One Alder Flycatcher has been seen before in Iceland but never in Britain.

The bird species measures from 13 to 17 cm (5-7 in); weighs 12 to 14g (0.42-0.49 ounces); and has a wingspan of 21-24 cm (8-9 in).

It feeds mainly on insects caught in the air or gleaned from the foliage of trees and shrubs.
Author: ajohn    Time: 10/10/2008 14:52

I would agree with Graham's opinion that anyone who goes to look for a bird that others have publicised should also be prepared to publicise the location of any rare bird they find. I have been lucky enough to find a few rare birds (although nothing as good as this shrike!) and have tried to ensure the information is available. I would expect anyone else to do the same and have been to see other's birds - this includes the shrike so I am, of course, very pleased that the location of this bird was revealed.

Many people will be interested in going to see a rare bird - as I said in my previous post, this should not cause excess disturbance to the bird if everybody behaves correctly. In this respect, anyone visiting a rare bird which has been publicised should behave correctly to ensure that disturbance is minimised (of course, I would expect anyone to behave correctly when observing any bird, rare or common). This way, people will not be concerned about revealing the location of birds in the future.

Anyone posting an ID question on the forum should also be prepared to allow others to see the bird. This was in fact relevant for this shrike, which seemed a straight-forward ID on the original photos but was debated by those who saw the bird in the field.

There may be circumstances when it is better for the bird that the location is not publicised. This could apply, for example, to sensitive breeding or roosting species or if the bird is on private land (although I would encourage anyone to seek permission from the landowner to permit visitors). If you are not prepared to reveal the location, it would be best to give a reason for this on the website.

On the other hand, no-one should be bullied into revealing the location of a bird. If you are interested in seeing a particular bird, ask the finder for a location, explain the reasons you would like to see the bird and explain that you will not cause disturbance. I suspect there was a simple misunderstanding in this case, but obivously I do not know the full details so I will not comment further.

These wild birds do not 'belong' to anyone and are usually on public land, and many people enjoy going to see rare birds - not revealing the location can lead to resentment against the finder. There have been several previous cases of 'suppression' in the UK which have caused considerable bitterness lasting many years. I hope this does not happen in Hong Kong!
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 10/10/2008 20:51     Subject: Red-backed Shrike, Miscellaneous

Dear all

I am glad the Red-backed Affair has attracted such good number of positive, constructive and healthy opinions and suggestions. While I will not dwell on literally what is written in the Society's consititution, my past twenty years of experience tells the same conclusion. Let me share with you all some true ancedotes.

When I was quite a novice in birdwatching and there existed no Hotline for the birding community in general, I one day hurried to Mai Po in the direction of the Scrape (Ponds 16/17). I met an English-speaking birder and enquired about the Oriental White Storks. Half surprisingly and half-mockingly his reply was, "The were all gone quite a number of days."

Another is the bird Brown-breasted Flycatcher which I have never seen. I learnt from the Annual Report (in those days the reports were sent to our hands punctually to the week. How are you and where are you now, my dear Verity (Pickens)?). It has been well seen like other rarities by a dozen of well-informed birdwatchers but no other outside their circle.

Take one more example. I was for one almost envious of what Hon Kong Twitcher had achieved of seeing 350 different birds in the wild in one year. There are a number of successful elements there, prominent among them is help from friendly fellow birders who did not mind telling him where the good birds could be found.

The story is quite contrary in my case. While I have been serving the local Chinese birding community by being the official informer as regard bird finds (being in charge of the Chinese Hotline), up to now since I succeeded H F Cheung, it could be for months hundreds of callers listening to the daily hotline bulletin without leaving a message about their finds).

We join the society naturally to share, for good and for bad, not to take without contribute, asking for ID while holding their information for various reasons which so far I've found quite unjustified and some I dare say bordering on selfishness. My fellow Chinese-speaking birders, you did love 'Casaer' (the Society) once, why don't you now mourn for him (contribute to the Chinese hotline for the benefit of all)?

Good birding to you all

'Hopeful' Tai
Author: mchristine    Time: 10/10/2008 21:54     Subject: Mr Tai please help enlighten me

Dear Mr Tai,

Could you please help enlighten me by advising in which HKBWS official channel did indicate that you are "serving the local Chinese birding community by being the official informer as regard bird finds (being in charge of the Chinese Hotline)".  Sorry that I just don't have a clue.  

I feel totally confused now.  If you are known to have such offical capacity then all unhappy events and lingering discussions should not have happened.
Author: twaiyi    Time: 10/10/2008 22:27

我說一下我不想公開地點的原因
1. 公開了地點，萬一出現了數十人，可能會跟街坊有衝突。
例如：有街坊說話比較大聲，因此嚇走了大家正在觀看和拍攝的鳥，而觀鳥者又埋怨而跟街坊吵起來，之後的我已經不敢想像。又或是街坊在晨操，覺得我們數十人很阻礙他們而吵起來。
2. 擔心有鳥友會弄壞街坊的物件
3. 擔心有不守規矩的鳥攝者，為求漂亮的照片而做出過份的行為

如果這一隻鳥是在TPK、MP、LV這一類一直是觀鳥點的地方，我倒是不介意公開地點。但這一次是在市區，是一個一直不會同時出現大量觀鳥者或鳥攝者的地方，這裡又有不少人在那活動，而且有很多是街坊的東西，公開這地點實在有顧慮。我希望鳥會能明白我。



另外，說一說戴先生的事，
我之前一直不認識你，你在鳥會有什麼地位我並不清楚，我實在沒有要刻意中傷你的理由。
事實上戴先生你那天中午是使用了威脅性的言語來叫我說出鳥點，在你說我不公開鳥點就在大會提出不讓我續會和不能當義工之後，我真的有決定下年不續會和不再於圖書館幫忙的想法。
其實我只是當了正式鳥會會員一個月，我實在沒想過「鳥會會員」和「鳥會義工」竟然成了迫會員說出鳥點的工具，這實在叫我無奈和後悔。
要是戴先生你說你當天沒有這麼說過，我也不會迫你認，但你自己問心真的沒說過這樣叫人生氣的說話嗎？
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 10/10/2008 22:37     Subject: Reply to mchristine from Tai

Dear Mchristine

Forgive for addressing you as above.

It is up to the Society if it thinks it important enough to give the birding community the holder of the office its due publicity. For the English counterpart the holder is Richard whose voice I almost hear daily so that I can get a digest of what he learns about bird finds of the day (the tranlation often proves hard though I hold good qualification in tranlation, chiefly for bird names and places).

When I asked Ms Twaiyi for information, I did revealed who I was and asked her to refer me to Mr Ho our office manager for confirmation. I tried hard and repeatedly with Ms Twaiyi in this tone/way but sadly to no avail. While I am respectfully to and appreciate for what Richard has done all the years, the Chinese holder is regarded as it seems to me a far-inferior second.

Thank you for your care and concern to make an direct enquiry.

Happy Tai
Author: BWA    Time: 10/10/2008 22:45

關於有人追問紅背伯勞位置一事，
雙方都已經作了交代，
無論誰是誰非，
再糾纏下去也不會有結果，
請大家還是集中討論應該如何分享鳥踪和如何處理敏感地點吧！

I think enough has been said from either side about the incident concerning the Red-backed Shrike, and it is unlikely that the debate could be resolved at this Forum.
Let's focus further discussion on how to share bird news and how to handle sensitive locations.



[ Last edited by BWA at 10/10/2008 22:51 ]
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 10/10/2008 22:58     Subject: An in-direct reply to Twaiyi latest comment

Dear  all

Perhaps my professional past lingers in my tone of speaking a heavy weight of authority which I probably cannot get rid of for the rest of my life. But anyone who hears and reads me carefully should probably detect in my words an expressive and explicit truth of being honest-speaking, though some might find them blunt and hurting.

For the moment I will try not to speak to stangers for information in the society.

This is my last reponse to anything said by Ms Twaiyi openly to bother anybody.

Misunderstanding is the name of the gulf at the moment.

Proud-speaking Tai
Author: tmichael    Time: 10/10/2008 23:26

My first and last word: in nearly forty years' birding (FYI I started on 7 November 1970 in Hartlepool, UK, when myself, my P6 teacher, and probably about 30 other 10 year old kids, found a Great Grey Shrike at an unusual suburban location, by strange coincidence) I cannot think of a bird that less needed any kind of 'protection' through any kind of secrecy than this bird: all it needed was for people to observe the only real rule that birders need to observe - don't flush the bird ie make the bird fly!!

Teach the all the masses of non-birder photographers that simple rule and you've solved the problem.

Real, happy, fun birding thrives on the sharing of information, and people's enthusiasm for seeing birds.

At least one old gwailo birder in HK never came to terms with that, as you can read in some very tedious sections in recent HKBWS bulletins.   

Mike Turnbull.
Author: HKBWS Vicky    Time: 11/10/2008 00:17     Subject: Correction of information

According to tsheunglai's reply #37,
Our office manager is Mr. Lo but not Mr. Ho. We do have a colleague named Mr. Ho who is our surveyor.
Author: Beetle    Time: 11/10/2008 00:17

I think all concerns are about whether the bird-watchers and/or bird-photographers all show self-discipline. I don’t think this is a problem for bird lovers like most members in HKBWS, or some other nature-lovers. Even the locals and construction workers nearby contributes more disturbance to the bird than bird-watchers! But I do worry if the information is being told to some non-birders photographers who may extensively disturb the bird.

About disturbing the local residents nearby, I don’t think it is likely to happen. I didn’t see such serious conflicts happening in Lai Chi Kok Park last year (although sometimes birders/photographers do block the paths in the park), as locals could understand what and why we are there, if we (as birders) explained our situation to them. To me it is wise to trust both birders and locals. It is happy to be friend and chat with local people there too. (I am not sure if people in Ho Man Tin are unkind, but birders must respect them first.)

I agree that the birdline is really a great contribution which facilitates all birders in Hong Kong. But it is up to the bird-finder to contribute to birdline because the information can spread really fast in such case. I don’t recommend the information to be put on birdline in case of such a rare bird, unless in save locations which provide lots of space for the bird.

Beetle Cheng Nok Ming
Author: HFCheung    Time: 11/10/2008 13:21

I have been watching this discussion while thinking what are the main points.  As I said before, I think there are two.

1. Review the present guideline and working procedure for collecting and releasing rare bird information
2. Investigate what happen in this case, because there is a serious accusation on a HKBWS volunteer

No.1 we can continue the discussion on BBS.  No.2 is involve collecting information and interviews, and is best done behind the scene.

On no.1, I have the following points to make.
1. I think there is general agreement that sharing of bird information in HKBWS is desireable and should be continued in some way.

2. There are still concern that a large crowd of birdwatchers (including photographers) can casue unwanted disturbance.  Say, it takes only a few people to cause the damage.  The public including some HKBWS members may not follow birdwatching guideline to the extend that we want.  We simply cannot control them.

3. At present, the main method of publicizing rare bird information are the English and Chinese birdlines, and the HKBWS bulletin board / discussion forum.  Both HKBWS members and non-members can access that.  Do members think that a more user-restricted system is the way to go?

4. In my opinion, respect to all other people is the most important.  It is very common in our society to have different opinion and judgement.  When a birdwatcher finds a rare bird, he/she can decide whether to release the information to anybody immediately.  The society can encourage information sharing, but should never enforce that.  Especially at present, we cannot solve the problem of controlling the disturbance after we publicize the information.

5. When the information is released to the society, say the birdline operator, then it should be understood that the information will be made public.  If the finder do not want this to happen, then a request should be made and some terms agreed.  If people getting the information cannot accept the terms, then they should not get that information.

So much for now.  I am sure we need more.  The AGM will come up in 10 days.  It will be another good chance to have some discussion, although I think we cannot solve this in a short time.

HF Cheung
Author: lmunchong    Time: 11/10/2008 16:23

A lot of us have expressed their point of view. This is good as open discussion do no harm at all. Don't hide, make it open!

I only have one point to stress.

The HKBWS should not accept any terms on who can and who cannot see the bird. All members are equal. (If I cannot disclose to other birders, don't let me know at all, just that simple)

Finally we still need the date and location of this series of picture. This is the rule of the forum, right! NO ONE is special.
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 11/10/2008 20:22     Subject: Fear & Reality

Dear all

Don't let fear be the rule of the day!

Let us recall from our birding history cases of seeing a rarity that caused distrubance or aroused public concern.

Let me recall my past participation of seeing a first bird of Hong Kong. As they were always some senior and respectable birders present who provided polite and proper guidance, discipline has been maintained to the satisfaction of all present. Up to now I don't see any need of new guidance and rules for birding in such cases. The Lai Chi Kok Park case which aroused outsiders' concern and complaint was quite different. Accessibility to information electronically is a double-edged tool.

Experience, especially on-the-spot experience is paramount in birding, especially the above cases. I hope the fun will not be spoiled by some arm-chair strategists who point their fingers to direct events at a distance, especially on accepting complaints by someone who base their cases on empty FEAR. Right now, wild birds are forced to live among human activities. Either they adapt or let us not bird at all. Ringing, I believe, is a torture to wild birds, but only to a tiny percent of them. Disturbance to nature is a HUMAN CRIME. Birding, from the point of view of wild birds, is one example. Let us all strike a fine balance.

Last of all, birders or non-birders, are free to be present in any public place. This is right of everyone who obeys the law of Hong Kong.

Tai
Author: BWA    Time: 11/10/2008 23:29

本地確有一些以照片為先的拍友，不論是出於無知或有意，
為求拍得「好」照片，會不擇手段去于擾雀鳥及破壞自然環境，
以下便是一些例子，在封閉的網上討論空間還有不少：
Out of ignorance or deliberation, there is still a small group of photographers who put photos before birds.
To get their "great" shots, they would go as far as disturbing the birds and destroying their natural habitat.
Below are some examples of such incidents, more can be found in restricted forums on the web.

Selfish guy frightened crested grebe 自私自利的人對住隻鳳頭鸊鷉狂閃閃閃

又一缺德行為攝影實錄! Report on Two Bad Bird Photographers

有關到燕鷗島拍攝照片的討論 Discussion on Taking Photos at Tern Islands

Survey Results at Sai Kung Tern Island 西貢燕鷗島調查結果

今日 Metro 講掉石嚇雀人


嚇雀人影鳳頭鷿鷈


如果你有興趣，在網上還可以找到一些主張不顧鳥類安危去拍照的言論。
For those interested, you may still find discussions on the web about "shooting" practices that disregard the welfare of birds.

有見及此，本會去年中亦發表了一些守則，希望提醒鳥友及拍友要留意，
不要于擾雀鳥和破壞自然：
In view of this, the Society published a set of code to remind birdwatchers and photographers to avoid disturbing birds and their habitats.
觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則 Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Bird Photography

對無知或不負責任拍友的顧慮，並非閉門空想。
The concern about ignorant or irresponsible photographers is not unfounded.

[ Last edited by BWA at 11/10/2008 23:31 ]
Author: lpaul    Time: 11/10/2008 23:35     Subject: temp

Firstly, can I suggest that this thread be split in two, one to dicuss the bird itself and another to discuss the issues surrounding it.

However, regarding the bird, yes it is a first-winter due to (for example) the pale fringed tertials, greater coverts and scapulars.

Regarding the right of others to see it, I think if you put pictures of a bird on the forum asking for others to spend their time and use their expertise to help identify it you should be prepared to share the information regarding its location with others.  If you do not want to share that information then don't post the photos.  It is pretty simple really, if I know there is a good bird out there somewhere, I would like to see it (especially if I helped to identify it!), if I can't see it (for whatever reason) I get upset.  If I don't even know it is there I do not get upset!

There are rarely birds that need to be kept quiet, but this was not one of those birds as it tolerated much disturbance from workers and members of the public when I was there.

However, I learnt a lot from this bird (even though I have seen many elsewhere, few have been in this plumage - and none in Hong Kong!); and like many others I enjoy seing birds I have not seen in HK before.  Birding should be fun, interesting and a learning expereince and sharing rare birds is certainly one way to contribute to it being so.

Arguing about seeing rare birds is not.

[ Last edited by lpaul at 11/10/2008 23:37 ]
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 12/10/2008 00:15     Subject: temp

Dear all

I at last took time to have a look of what Paul has written. Paul, your observation is still that keen as former days I found you. But your biometrics do not help me at tall when I happen to bump into it or its kind again!

Back to the point. So far nobody has said whether it is definitely a juv (1st winter) or a female! Can I get an answer?

About field marks. I'm reading Plate 89 of Grimmet, etal's book 'Birds of Indian Sub-continent. Together with my own experience and knowledge, I judge the bird to be a juv/1st winter (by the way, which term is more appropriate this time of the year?). By its head (which is mottled), bill with a yellowish/ivory inner part, mottled wing coverts and back, and its scaled breast sides I wonder if I could venture saying it a juv/first winter.

From some particular angle (only) the bird was sharp square-tailed. But one easily seen feature is that it has a clear BROWN eyestripe that few other juv have. Its tail is the brightest in brown and its upper tail coverts are scaled. The bill shape and size defintely helps here (for a keen and experienced birder only). Furthermore, the tertials are thickly fringed in buff while the primary projection's length is hard to judge/compare.

Please let me suggest here that it is a juv/1st winter Red-backed Shrike for having a clear brown eyestripe, brown mottled head and bright brown mantle (from some angle and the right direction of light, mottled back and upper tail coverts and a bright brown squared tail, colour comparing to other upper parts.

Hopefully someone could correct, improve and/or simplify my suggested field features said above.

Tai
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 12/10/2008 00:18     Subject: temp

Dear all

I at last took time to have a look of what Paul has written. Paul, your observation is still that keen as former days I found you. But your biometrics do not help me at tall when I happen to bump into it or its kind again!

Back to the point. So far nobody has said whether it is definitely a juv (1st winter) or a female! Can I get an answer?

About field marks. I'm reading Plate 89 of Grimmet, etal's book 'Birds of Indian Sub-continent. Together with my own experience and knowledge, I judge the bird to be a juv/1st winter (by the way, which term is more appropriate this time of the year?). By its head (which is mottled), bill with a yellowish/ivory inner part, mottled wing coverts and back, and its scaled breast sides I wonder if I could venture saying it a juv/first winter.

From some particular angle (only) the bird was sharp square-tailed. But one easily seen feature is that it has a clear BROWN eyestripe that few other juv have. Its tail is the brightest in brown and its upper tail coverts are scaled. The bill shape and size defintely helps here (for a keen and experienced birder only). Furthermore, the tertials are thickly fringed in buff while the primary projection's length is hard to judge/compare.

Please let me suggest here that it is a juv/1st winter Red-backed Shrike for having a clear brown eyestripe, brown mottled head and bright brown mantle (from some angle and the right direction of light, mottled back and upper tail coverts and a bright brown squared tail, colour comparing to other upper parts.

Hopefully someone could correct, improve and/or simplify my suggested field features said above.

Tai
Author: lpaul    Time: 12/10/2008 00:35     Subject: temp

Firstly, can I suggest that this thread be split in two, one to dicuss the bird itself and another to discuss the issues surrounding it.

However, regarding the bird, yes it is a first-winter due to (for example) the pale fringed tertials, greater coverts and scapulars.

Regarding the right of others to see it, I think if you put pictures of a bird on the forum asking for others to spend their time and use their expertise to help identify it you should be prepared to share the information regarding its location with others.  If you do not want to share that information then don't post the photos.  It is pretty simple really, if I know there is a good bird out there somewhere, I would like to see it (especially if I helped to identify it!), if I can't see it (for whatever reason) I get upset.  If I don't even know it is there I do not get upset!

There are rarely birds that need to be kept quiet, but this was not one of those birds as it tolerated much disturbance from workers and members of the public when I was there.

However, I learnt a lot from this bird (even though I have seen many elsewhere, few have been in this plumage - and none in Hong Kong!); and like many others I enjoy seing birds I have not seen in HK before.  Birding should be fun, interesting and a learning expereince and sharing rare birds is certainly one way to contribute to it being so.

Arguing about seeing rare birds is not.

[ Last edited by lpaul at 11/10/2008 23:37 ]
Author: chonki    Time: 12/10/2008 17:46

Congras to TWAIYI.

The interest of the bird should always go first,
I enjoy knowing the bird is safe, rather than knowing where it is and how to identify it in the risk of disturbance to the bird.

Concerning the opinion that identification help should be under the condition of disclosing its location,
the logic behind is "funny", esp. when it comes to bird nest or, say, three-lined box turtle.

As long as it is the discoverer's will to protect the animal, I think we should all respect and ,more, appreciate.

Opinion from a Small Potato
Author: wgeoff    Time: 12/10/2008 20:44

We are getting confused between opinion and fact.

The fact is that we have a rule which states that anyone posting photographs on this website should declare the location (in detail if necessary) and the date of the photo. This rule does not appear to have been followed in this case, but everyone posting photos on this website should now be aware of the rule.

There may be a few occasions when the rule should not apply, these were covered by John Allcock and I can only quote his comment
'There may be circumstances when it is better for the bird that the location is not publicised. This could apply, for example, to sensitive breeding or roosting species or if the bird is on private land (although I would encourage anyone to seek permission from the landowner to permit visitors). If you are not prepared to reveal the location, it would be best to give a reason for this on the website.'
So, if you don't want to publish the details, declare the fact and the reason when you post the photos.

It then becomes a matter of opinion whether we should retain this rule. For me, we should, for two main reasons

1. birds are amazingly resilient. In their normal lives, they are probably challenged 100 times daily by other birds, let alone other animals and humans. They have the ability to fly away if they don't like it. Whilst we cannot guarantee the behaviour of everyone watching or photographing birds, it has rarely proved a problem elsewhere except under the circumstances described by John above.

2. this is a society for watching birds. A very important part of this is the free exchange of information. I for one would be reluctant to contribute to the website if I felt others were doing so on a different basis.

Finally, I think this submission and the previous one should appear under the heading 'should locations of rarities be publicised' and ask an official to change them over.
Author: tbob    Time: 12/10/2008 20:49

I am still puzzled as to how so many people saw this bird when its location was not revealed
Author: tsheunglai    Time: 12/10/2008 22:16     Subject: Why so many having seen the bird?

Dear Bob

Good question. Enquiries about its location start almost I believe as soon as photos appear on the website. I myself phoned a birder I know well. He was travelling so he gave me a phone number to contact the finder. I got a promise but it was broken.

As far as I know. The finder informed two of her friends she trusted. She borrowed some equipment and took some photos. She posted some asking help for ID. She told me the bird has been in the same location for two days.

Frustrated, I had a turn of forune. A telephone call telling me where I shouold go for the bird. When I arrived about a dozen birders/photographers I happen to know already there. One birder I know well probably found the location and bird on his own. He was smart enough to deduce from information he got from the website.

I followed Richard, the holder of the English Hotline's example and posted the message about the bird on the Chinese Hotline. I informed by phone a couple of other birders in the evening. I called at the English Hotline next evening. I followed its example and changed the message to make the location vague, just Ho Man Tin. But according to my telephone record, about eighteen callers have got the message, the exact location I mean. You know hot news travels fast, I think exponentially. In two days time, I estimate at least fifty birders and photographers available of time of the society, including a couple who carried cameras, complete strangers to me who talked to nobody had arrived before me, saw the bird.

That is what I know.

Tai
Author: 深藍-Owen    Time: 12/10/2008 23:43

You are WRONG! Tai!

photo appear on internet starting Oct 6 and Tung asking me about the finder info on 7th, same night WaiYi, the poor little girl who just a student posting the photo on HKBWS website and start her nightmare!!

Bus Passenger Owen who obey the law of Hong Kong.
Author: sammysam    Time: 13/10/2008 00:21

It's incredible that so many experts (expecially, Mr. Tai who make a "Nightmare" call to her...) were discussing on an ethics issue that let me feel like attacking an non-adult student, "twaiyi". As, I know, she is small and new on birding (one year). It's an superb experience to meet the "HK first" for her. In these years, too many bad shooting examples that we saw on web. I don't think it's easy to make a decision to tell others or not for her..
Author: wcaptain    Time: 13/10/2008 16:28

應否公開稀有鳥類的位置？

若然觀鳥活動或生態攝影真的滋擾雀鳥，那麼我們便不單只不應公開稀有鳥類的位置，還應放棄任何觀鳥活動或生態攝影，從而保護稀有及不稀有的雀鳥。

還有，我們更不應出版年報，否則有心人便細心閱讀紀錄，從而觀察或「滋擾」雀鳥。早前有觀鳥者靠過去紀錄在飛鵝山找到的雕鴞便是一例。

這樣對嗎？我絕對不同意以上觀點。觀察/攝影不等如滋擾

大埔滘的雀鳥被觀察超過四十年，雀鳥的數目及種類不降反升。其他經常有觀鳥者到訪的地方也大多如是。可見一般觀鳥活動對雀鳥沒甚壞影響。

我同意Geoff Welsh /John 的觀點。多人一起觀察雀鳥並不是問題，重要的是守則。所以我們應把討論放在教育及推廣觀鳥守則上。只把討論放在公開稀有鳥類的位置顯得十分空洞，單是討論「稀有鳥類」的定義肯定花上不少時間。

另一方面，絕對同意不應公開鳥類繁殖點的位置。在這敏感時間，任何滋擾都是吃不消的。

隊長
Author: HFCheung    Time: 13/10/2008 18:04

I agree very well with Sammy that this discussions sound very negative to TWAIYI.  It sounds as if she have done somethings terrible wrong by refusing to reveal the exact location to Mr Tai.  I understand that the information has been revealed to somebody she trusted, and eventually the information was passed onto the English birdline operator and then opened to HKBWS members through the birdline, although only for a short time.  To me, she have done the society a great favour.  Through her, we now have a possible first for HK.  I praise her for what she have done to the society.

I agree with Sammy that there are at least several incidences that people think that disturbance has been excessive, and that is outside HKBWS control.  I think all of us understand that the key is whether all observers are following an acceptable rule, but in reality, there are often somebody willing to step into grey areas in the rule, and thus others find the act unacceptable.  The concern for too much disturbance is real.  I have a lot of respect fot those who are willing to share the information, but I also respect those who give some thought to the potential disturbance.  In practice, many forums would not force photographers to reveal the location.  When HKBWS force photographers to reveal the location, I guess the feeling would be: HKBWS does not take bird protection as serious as other forums.

In the end, the question is: when we open up the full information to members and the public, can HKBWS gaurantee that the bird will not be disturbed excessively?  If yes, then we can enforce the guideline that members need to reveal the information to all other members.  If no, we have no ground to ask our members to reveal information to all.

HF Cheung
Author: twaiyi    Time: 13/10/2008 18:34

如果香港的觀鳥者和鳥攝者都不是會做出過份行為，我相信我對公開鳥點有信心，但可惜，現在是有做出過份行為的人在，實在沒信心公開。
好在，紅背伯勞地點被公開後的日子，沒有對附近環境做成破壞，以我觀察也沒有做出過份行為的人。現在此鳥已經不見了好幾天，那個地方終於可以回復原來的樣貌。
人多的定義，我個人會看地點的大小，就說這次紅背伯勞的地點，不是很大，甚至我會覺得小，二十人同時存在，實在會覺得很擠迫，人看起來也特別顯眼。但相比起米埔，二十個人根本算不上什麼。

說這一次有多少人看到這鳥，我想大約有三十人左右，另外有些人則去了找不到鳥。
我在跟比較熟的鳥友說的時候(即6號晚)，是不清楚這是紅背伯勞，只是覺得比較像虎紋伯勞的紅尾伯勞，樣子奇怪。(有說過也許是雜交種)
正確來說，在這鳥被認為是紅背之前，共有6個人(不包括我)知道有此伯勞在何文田

下次再有HK First的話，個人覺得如果做法跟這次一樣是「死纏難打」，實在是有點令我感到可怕
個人認為應有渠道給發現者跟是確認鳥種的人聯絡，如果發現者認為公開地點不適合，應該尊重和遵守，不公開地點


另外，sammy，我是觀鳥約10年，鳥攝才是1年多
Author: BWA    Time: 13/10/2008 20:26

Quote:
Original posted by twaiyi at 13/10/2008 18:34
下次再有HK First的話，個人覺得如果做法跟這次一樣是「死纏難打」，實在是有點令我感到可怕
雀仔唔使怕，
主席惜（錫）哂你！



[ Last edited by BWA at 14/10/2008 00:51 ]
Author: kpokuen    Time: 13/10/2008 21:07

I agree with John and Captain.

kwan
Author: wleepoin    Time: 13/10/2008 22:18

Totally agree with Captain, John, Geoff Welsh!

"The Virtue of Birding, is sharing"

PWMK
Author: cywong    Time: 13/10/2008 23:24

I hope the HONG KONG BIRD WATCHING SOCIETY will not become the PREVENTION OF BIRDWATCHING SOCIETY!
Author: wgeoff    Time: 14/10/2008 04:00

I will make my final comment on this matter.

This is not an attack on Ms Twaiyi. In fact, it is a congratulatory note to her. By sharing the news of her great find with others, she has given a great deal of enjoyment to many members. This is the value of sharing in a society of like-minded people. Well done Ms Twaiyi, by sharing you have achieved a great deal and the bird was not affected.

On the subject of excessive disturbance. Of course we cannot guarantee the behaviour of all of our members. But what is ‘excessive disturbance’ for a bird? Does flushing a bird from its natural habitat, catching it in a net, manhandling it and sticking a ring on its leg constitute ‘excessive disturbance’? It would certainly come higher on my list than disturbing it when taking photographs of it. Am I advocating stopping bird ringing? No, because birds toleration of this activity is considered acceptable by all authorities.

Let us not get too hung up by disturbance, otherwise, as Captain says, we should never go bird watching at all. Birds are used to disturbance, its part of their daily lives and they have their own mechanism for dealing with it – they can fly away.

I am not advocating disturbing birds. But sometimes it happens, we all do it, and the bird knows how to react. The only circumstances where they cannot do this is in breeding, roosting and when tired immediately after long migration flights. In these situations they must be protected. But otherwise – trust the bird – they know how to look after themselves.

If we change our rules from a commitment to share information to one in which individuals can post photos but withhold information that others need to see the bird, I think this would be a retrograde step for the Society.

[ Last edited by wgeoff at 14/10/2008 09:09 ]
Author: ltsunpun    Time: 14/10/2008 12:30

非常同意 隊長，阿關，John, Geoff Welsh 和 Peter 的意見。大家應該分享觀鳥的樂趣。
現時BBS討論區任何人都可以Login，會員非會員都可以得到同一資訊。
可否考慮BBS討論區祇能讓觀鳥會的會員才可以進入觀看，我留意到絕大部份的會員在觀鳥時都很自律，不會對雀鳥造成很大的騷擾。如果這概念可行的話，對雀鳥的騷擾會減小很多。

Totally agree with Captain, Mr. Kwan, Geoff Welsh and Peter's opinion. We should share the fun from bridwatching.
Now BBS Forum is available to the public, HKBWS's member and non member could login and obtain the same information.
Please consider if BBS Forum is available to the HKBWS members only, I observe that most of our member is very self-discipline, disturbance to the bird is not so much. If this suggestion is followed, I expect that disturbance could be reduced to a minimum.

TP Luk
Author: HFCheung    Time: 14/10/2008 15:07

I think most of the discussion is missing the point.  I don't think there is a difference in principle.  HKBWS will continue sharing all information to members.  That is what I beleive.  The main difference is in the choice whether HKBWS should allow some members to withhold bird information that they think sensitive, or to force every member to give up their own secret information by threatening their membership.

From what I heard so far, it seems most members prefer the second choice, right?  If that is the case, I am really shocked.  What has HKBWS become?

HF Cheung

[ Last edited by HFCheung at 14/10/2008 22:12 ]
Author: ltsunpun    Time: 14/10/2008 16:19

With reference to DR. HF Cheung's two choices above, I suggest slight modifications to provide alternative measure:

We may allow birder to withhold bird information because of sensitivity, however, the sensitivity rule should be defined by HKBWS beforehand, not by the finder's personal judgement. The rule should be better opened for discussion by the members first before it is established.

參考到張浩輝博士的二個選擇，希望做到不是黑便是白的選擇，所以提議改良一下如下：
如果公開鳥况的地點是敏感資料，對鳥可能有傷害性的騷擾，我們可以允許作者不把鳥况的地點公開。但是何為敏感資料應是由觀鳥會事先製訂，经過會員同意才執行，不是個人的主觀意見。

TP Luk
Author: ajohn    Time: 14/10/2008 17:46

Quote:
Original posted by HFCheung at 14/10/2008 15:07
The main difference is in the choice whether HKBWS should allow some members to withhold bird information that they think sensitive, or to force every member to give up their own secret information by threatening their membership.

From what I heard so far, it seems most members prefer the second choice, right?  
Ho-fai

I don't think anyone has been advocating threatening membership of the society. Re-reading the previous posts I do not see where you have got the idea that this is the case. Certainly I would very strongly disagree with the idea that someone should be forced out of the society (this opinion applies to almost any situation).

This thread seems to be going on for a long time and becoming unnecessarily heated. I think in fact that most people are arguing the same point - that anyone watching or photographing birds should ensure that they do not cause them excessive disturbance. This applies equally to common and rare species. In most cases it should be possible to release information about the bird so that others can see and enjoy the bird, and I would urge anyone to do so. If there is a reason that the bird may be particularly sensitive (especially if breeding), you should think carefully about disclosing information (and only tell people you trust - hopefully this includes HKBWS members). Ultimately, it is down to the common sense of the finder and I believe the vast majority of people would act appropriately.

Please note that none of this relates specifically to the shrike. I do not know the full details of this case, and I think that this is true for virtually everybody. All I will say on that case is congratulations to twaiyi on finding the bird: be pleased that others were so keen to see it (this shows how lucky you were to find it!), do not take offence that the information spread among bird watchers you did not know (this is the nature of the bird watching community) and above all PLEASE do not be discouraged in future birdwatching by any comments made recently.
Author: tgraham    Time: 14/10/2008 21:35

I agree with John nobody was advocating withdrawing the membership of anyone who does not want to share the location of  birds they find its totally up to the individual.

The more members the better for the Society and birdwatching in general

I think what people are saying is that should somebody not wish to share the information then they should not use the HKBWS web site to ask for help in identification or just to publish their photographs for the following reasons

1.        It is a condition that anyone posting a photograph on the societies web site should include a time and date. You can not have exceptions
2.        It will hopefully mean that executive members, employees and volunteers of the HKBWS are not put in an awkward position where they may be given information regarding a location and told not to publish it

There is a mechanism in place using a Rare Bird Records form for submitting rare bird findings the details of how to do it are one the HBWS web site

With regards to disturbance as far as I can determine most people believe that this is not an issue in HK with the exception of breeding or roosting birds.  Yes there has been the odd minor incident but we can name and shame.

As for my final comment I have always believed that it is unacceptable for somebody who is not willing to share their finds to go and see and photograph birds other people have found and shared.

BTW can you put finding rare birds on hold until I return to HK in five weeks.

HK Twitcher
Author: sammysam    Time: 15/10/2008 00:39

正如"PWMK"所言, 觀鳥其中一個重要的理念/美德, 就是分享, 這跟本就是大家共同的信念, 沒有需要討論的地方. 沒有香港觀鳥會的戶外活動, 沒有這類討論區的設立, 沒有各位專家的提示, 沒有鳥友的資訊, 觀鳥活動不能像現在般普及起來, 讓更多人認識到那麼多可愛及有活力的世界~~ 一直以來, 我很尊敬在香港觀鳥會內的資深鳥友, 一直無私地分享各鳥種的資料, 讓許多朋友有機會見識得更多~~ 當中我就是其中一個得益者.

但就今次的事件, 令我困惑的不在於是否公開稀有鳥類, 而是若有會員拒絕提供資訊給他不願意的人. (而事實上, 這隻伯勞的資訊是有被公開的.) 大家會以什麼態度去面對? 像"戴先生"利用會藉去迫使他說出資訊嗎? 我相信當然不能. 所以我感覺到"會長的回應"讓大家有機會再作反思. 因為在討論當中, 大家只立點於"支持分享", 就像是認同了令次強迫會員提供資訊的行徑...  

在一直的討論, 跟本就沒有人反對公開資料給其他鳥友, 包括我. 但在"twaiyi"的回應中, 讓我想到仍有不少令人擔心的問題未能解決:
1. 是否應該全面公開給所有人?
2. 若同時間出現大量的鳥攝人仕, 如何作出平衡?
3. 一些在鳥攝上過份的行為如何有效避免?
4. 強迫在網上公開鳥攝地點及時間, 是否有效提供分享的平台?

老實說, 在這觀鳥會的討論區, 大部份的鳥攝相片都是近年新加入的新鳥友, 一些資深的鳥友已很少在討論區內分享鳥攝相片, 不知會不會是因為不想分享地點而不再在此貼相..., (這只是我的估計, 若有冒犯, 先說對不起! )
Author: wcaptain    Time: 15/10/2008 09:28

可否考慮以下方案

(1) 如以往，觀鳥者可以自由發表雀鳥地點

(2) 若觀鳥者不確定發表雀鳥地點會否造成滋擾，可通知鳥會，再由數位專家組成鳥會小組考慮個案，及统一發表。觀鳥者可把任何有關地點查詢轉介給鳥會。

隊長

Options for announcing special bird locatons

(1) Members are free to release the information as usual

(2) If members are uncertain about the impact due to the release of the location, he/she can inform HKBWS. A special task force (comprising several experts) will consider whether the location should be released. The observer has the right to divert all enquiries to the HKBWS (i.e. the observer has the right to remain silent).

Captain
Author: lmunchong    Time: 15/10/2008 09:55

Response to Sammy's thread.

1. As a old birder, we used to share, you are very welcome to use our birdline to gain information. No need to thank.
2. The case of the Twaiyi accusing Mr. Tai, is up to the committee to investigate and to take action. Not up to us to judge.
3. Your apology on wrongly assuming old birders not posted images, is out of selfishness, is accepted. No next time.

Lee

[ Last edited by lmunchong at 15/10/2008 10:27 ]
Author: 深藍-Owen    Time: 15/10/2008 11:09

Give and Take.  有多小人真的可以做到?

Internet 分享模式衝擊傳統主因就係因為分享而不問回報. 從來架個網係到. 就預左任人睇. 唔想比人睇. 就唔好整個 web, 各位駛用 internet 享受資訊同時. 你又有否想過你地有多小回報到你得到資訊的網站? 報紙, portal, forum, 搜尋器..etc 你 input 過幾多?

鳥會 Forum 都係. 出聲既人. 只係漸極小數. 但唔出聲日日係到睇係到 grap info 既. 卻佔左 9 成以上. 如果以你地既邏輯. 呢 d 人係咪就要全部摒諸門外?

今日. 係呢個 Thread 到出聲既人. 過往. 又有幾多之前係積極參與呢個 forum 的討論? 當問題似乎影響到佢地利益時. 就出來大義凜然說一番話.

Ramsar 危在旦夕. 圍住 Ramsar 的發展伸請有 5 個之多. 如果批晒會陸續有黎. 你地有無人理過個 post? 大是大非你地唔去理. 一隻雀你攪到好似十惡不赦?

**

講返之前一個相同 Case. Slaty-backed Flycatcher.
隻雀根本唔係 post 係鳥會. 但有 d 有心人睇到. 就將 info forward 落鳥會.
當其時大家都唔知係乜. 只當可能係幼雌鳥之類, 私低下有人問有關權威. 換來結果係一句 :

"No location, No ID"

Fine, fair Deal. 你唔答.找其他人答. post 去其他網站. 甚至 post 去外國網站問人. 一定有人答. 但居然有人追殺到外國網站說三道四. 似乎想阻止其他人協助 ID, 鳥會勢力幾時變到可以控制全世界 forum? 幾時變到可以咁霸道, 我地已經唔係鳥會發. 外面既世界你都要管埋?

**

查實呢個 topic 有咩好 argue? 大家都成年人. 我 disclose 唔 disclose. 你可以點? 只要唔觸犯法律. 你唔會囉支鎗逼我答呀?  掉石登島果 d 你地都容忍到唔開除會籍. 唔 disclose 隻雀 ID? 你地容忍唔到? 點解..? 因為直接影響到你地既利益乎?

睇左雀咁耐都唔明? 就算真係比你知. 都唔等於可以比你見. 但唔比你知唔等於你撞唔到. 講左咪多隻雀睇下. 唔講咪繼續自己去睇. 從來到係自己發現開心過靠人地架啦.

WaiYi post 左 location. 地區可能對某 d 人黎講覺得模糊. 但睇睇大陸觀鳥 forum 既 location 公怖方式. 已經縮窄好多. 如果用佢地個套. 就會寫 : 廣東.

敬告各位. 世界變左好多. 你地出去睇雀. 見到你地所謂既"Birder" 多. 定係所謂既"photographer" 多. 好多你以前用開果套. 係新時代已經不合用. 更加唔好囉外國果套過黎. 香港. 就係香港. 同一隻雀. 係 UK, 大陸, 香港, 印尼出現. 可以有好唔同既命運.

語畢.
Author: HFCheung    Time: 15/10/2008 11:12

Thank's Sammy.  I think we should start thinking how to release the information effectively, many be in another link.  There is one hypothetical case that I like people on this forum to comment on.

A rare Owl is a passage migrant in HK.  Most members in the society have not seen it.  It is not very difficult to see.  All you need is to know the site information.  The problem is that the road of the site is very narrow, so that there is real difficulty for two individuals to pass each other.  And, I understand that few photos have been taken on this Owl.  The urge to take good photos must be in the mind of many birdwatchers.  The place is not as brightly lit as Lai Chi Kok Park where taking photos without touch or flash light is still possible.  Once the place is open to the public, or even to members, my guess is that many members will get there and spend hours searching for it.  Once it is found, the urge to use touch and flash light must be unstoppable.  I am not saying that it will harm the bird.  I am quite sure that the bird will move away to protect itself.

Now I like to listen to opinions on how the society should handle this information, if the information is available.

HF Cheung
Author: BWA    Time: 15/10/2008 12:46

如果我個人知道消息，好簡單：
話畀幾位相熟而又可靠（明白、認同及會主動避免于擾）嘅鳥友知，
包括可以協助確認鳥種的資深鳥友，
同時要求對方要小心處理，
唔好令情況失控。

當然，如果能夠控制現場于擾則可以將消息廣為傳播，
但是目前重未有任何可靠方案，
坦白講，我並不相信人人可以自律。

If I got the information personally, very simple:
Tell a few birdwatchers that I know well and can be trusted (those who would understand， agree and will actively avoid disturbance), including experts who may help to confirm the ID.
Ask them to take discretion in spreading the news so that the situation wouldn't get out of control.

Off course, the news could be spread farther and wider if a system is in place to control the disturbance at the site.  However no reliable system is currently in place.  Frankly speaking I don't believe that all people will exercise self discipline without some form of control.

[ Last edited by BWA at 15/10/2008 20:32 ]
Author: tbob    Time: 15/10/2008 13:57

I would like to see this question sent to other bird watching societies around the world to see what action, if any they would take.

I think we should be careful if we decide to give some bird watchers information and withhold it from others. The aim of the Society is to promote bird watching and conservation and we should not start creating several tiers of members or otherwise we may loose the lower tier. Remember the junior bird-watcher today will be our senior member in a few years time.
Author: HFCheung    Time: 15/10/2008 17:23

I welcome Owen's post.  It help me understand how some members think.  It is important to listen to all opinions.

My immediate reaction is that members and the public should not confuse individual's view/action to society's view/action.  I believe some accusations on the society should be diverted to individual.

If the society have done something wrong, the executive committee of which I am the Chairman should be responsible.

HF Cheung
Author: HFCheung    Time: 15/10/2008 19:30

More reply to Owen's post.

I think Owen is quite concern about HKBWS.  That is why he is suggesting us to think more deeply on the function of the discussion forum.  Of course he is extermely experienced in running forum.

Although it has been decide that the date and location need to be specified in the HKBWS discussion forum, if there are sufficient support to re-set the rule, we will do that.  Actually, the society also runs a China Programme discussion forum jointly with Birdlife International.  In that forum, the focus is on China birds, and the rule are not as strict.  If people do not mind the possible lower expertie level, feel free to use that forum for bird ID questions.

There is one point he mentioned that I strongly feel the need to reply.  Over the years, although we discuss rules for our members to observe, there is indeed no cases that we discontinue someone's membership.  Although the principle is clear: "Any member that acts against the objective of the society can have their membership revoked".  In practice, HKBWS will not actively check our members.  If evidence comes to us directly or indirectly, then I beleive the BoD should act.  If anybody think that there is sufficient evidence against any members, HKWBS would like to get those information, and act accordingly.

HF Cheung
Author: BWA    Time: 15/10/2008 21:09

我在 #60 以個人角度回答了主席在 #59 提出的問題，
如果是鳥會收到相關消息，理想中我們或許應該這樣做：

1. 評估如果大量鳥友出現會有甚麼後果（但是由誰做呢？），然後決定如何發放消息，防止給不可信任的人（尤其是已知曾于擾雀鳥和破壞自然的人，或和這些人有密切關係的人）得到。

2. 要尊重發現者的意見，預防措施要得到他的認同。

3. 有系統地組織會員分組到現場看，由義工帶領及維持秩序，參與的人在未知道詳情前要同意只會和可信任的人分享。

好像很複雜，不過我自己在 2006 年曾不慎洩露類似消息，至今仍在後悔。亦因為這樣，私人搞的燕鷗調查只招待熟人。


In post #60 I replied to HF's question in #59 as if I personally got the info.
If the Society receives the news, ideally we should:

1. Assess (but who shall do it?) the consequence if a large crowd turns up, and decide how to release the news while avoiding leakage to unreliable persons (especially those known to have caused disturbance or damage, or are associated with such persons).

2. Respect the view of the informer and obtain his agreement regarding the precautionary measures.

3. Organise the visits in small parties led by volunteer leaders, who would monitor the situation.  Participants should commit beforehand that they would only release the information to trusted persons.

Sounds complicated? but I have leaked similar information inadvertently in 2006, and regret it ever since.  And because of that, I only entertain close friends in my private tern surveys.

[ Last edited by BWA at 15/10/2008 21:11 ]
Author: sammysam    Time: 15/10/2008 21:28

Quote:
原帖由 lmunchong 於 15/10/2008 09:55 發表
Response to Sammy's thread.

1. As a old birder, we used to share, you are very welcome to use our birdline to gain information. No need to thank.
2. The case of the Twaiyi accusing Mr. Tai, is up to  ...
首先很多謝你的諒解. 另外, 既然你作為一位資深的鳥友, 可不可以去解一解我的困惑...
1. 看來你是一個資深的鳥友, 你說你是"old birder", 為何你不加入香港觀鳥會, 你連會員也不是..., 只是一名BBS member.
2. 你用"our birdline"字眼, 可否說明一些你在birdline的角色? 讓我好謝謝你!
3. 既然你是"old birder", 可不可以分享為何在此討論區中, 我找不到你在此分享的資訊?! (只找到你質疑私人出資的燕鷗調查為可不公開的討論) 讓我明白到自己亂估計中的"selfishness".

老實說, 對於自己亂估計的言論, 實在有點懊惱. 而事實上我每次瀏覽觀鳥會的討論區, 都佷想看到更多資深觀鳥前輩的分享, 像Geoff, Jemi & John, thomos, matthew等, 他們都很樂意讓更多人了解觀鳥的樂趣. 每次也能從他們的分享中, 一點點地讓自己的觀鳥路上成長.

看到這大義凜然的說話, 現在真的有點怕, 感受到Owen所講... 問題出在那裡?!

自己的說話太多了....語畢



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