ajohn

Along the Mai Po Access Road today I was concerned to see a number of photographers close to a nest of Black Drongo. My previous experience of this individual has been that, despite nesting very close to the road, she has been shy of human activity and has been leaving the nest as soon as anyone has walked along the road nearby.

I suggested to the photographers that they may be too close to the nest and may be disturbing the birds, but nobody seemed prepared to move away from the nest. Fortunately the bird has apparently been continuing to feed her small chicks despite the presence of people so close to the nest, as I was lucky enough to witness a few minutes later (I was watching from the car several metres along the road to minimise potential disturbance).

I realise that most people interested in birds are aware of the issues, but some birdwatchers and photographers may be more inexperienced and may not realise that staying close to a nest may be a problem. I would like to remind all photographers and birdwatchers that nesting birds can be VERY prone to disturbance. Some birds may abandon a nest if they think there are predators (including people) in the area. The presence of people may also attract the attention of other potential predators, such as cats or crows, which may return to the nest once the people have left.

In the interest of nesting birds, please avoid causing any unnecessary disturbance if you are lucky enough to find a nest. DO NOT visit the nest, DO NOT disturb vegetation around the nest and PLEASE watch the nest only from a safe distance, preferably somewhere that is not visible to the birds.

Thank you

[ Last edited by Webcreeper at 14/06/2010 23:14 ]

Sze

John! Totally agree with you!
I am very worry about this nest too!

Some sharing to all of you!
(Originally, I don't want to share this experience during this breeding season, since I don't want disclose the location of the nest!)

I tried to suggest one photographer to stand to the oppsite side of the road from the nest politely on Tue, however, the photographer said that the bird has been continuing to feed her small chicks and it seem not a problem of the presence of people so close to the nest. I wanted to explain to her but she just blamed me more than 10mins that do not to "teach" her what should do and do not "disturb" her to take photos, she don't think it is a problem to the bird!

So if anyone want to give suggestion to the photographers, please be careful!

完全同意你的說法！我也很擔心這個巢！
本來因為不想透露巢位，所以原本沒有想過在這個繁殖季將這件事說出來，
不過既然John說了，那就跟大家分享一下！

星期二時，我也去過探望這個巢，
因為之前已探望過兩次（約隔兩星期才探望一次）,
早於第一次探望時已知道這對鳥非常怕事，
所以每次觀察也站到十多米外，找些草／燈柱做掩護，
觀察一，兩分鐘，快影數張記錄照便走了。

那天見到一個攝影人士企得很近鳥巢（5米內），
但因見鳥兒仍在巢，所以也不敢走近。
等到鳥兒飛開，我嘗試走向那位攝影人士，
想同她說因為這對鳥很怕人，
想問她介唔介意站到馬路的對面。
但我都未說完佢就已經不停大聲同我講，
唔好教佢點做，佢知應該點做，
佢唔覺得佢有打擾隻雀，因為隻雀仲會坐巢，
同飛返黎餵仔，仲有條路日日都有人同車行過，
隻雀都仲係度，即係無問題啦！

我嘗試同佢解釋，不過佢繼續唔俾機會我講野，
只係叫我唔洗再講，唔好阻住佢影相。
如是者，拉鋸左不少於10分鐘。
所以想提醒大家，如果想勸人之前要做好心理準備！

我個人感覺上黑卷尾都係d怕人既雀（雖然佢對住其他雀就好惡！）
我自己都未見過佢地既巢，所以都想做下觀察的。
不過呢對傻雀，佢地真係好怕人，
之前觀察時就算企到10米外，一有眼神接觸就會飛走，
所以我都唔敢俾佢地見到我，次次都企到好遠（十幾米外），
因為怕嚇壞牠們，或令到牠們離巢太耐，
而令鳥蛋／幼鳥缺乏親鳥照顧而有危險
（例如：被猛烈的太陽曬壞，被獵食者捕獵）。
但點解佢地咁怕人都係個咁開揚既位築巢，
就真係唔知點解！

呢巢好叻，佢地已經捱過左最少3場大雷雨，同1日季候風，
隻幼鳥咁辛苦先出到世，我真係唔想佢地大唔到！

[ Last edited by Sze at 13/06/2010 01:43 ]

james10

Even being a rare visitor to Mai Po, I know of the nest you are talking about - it was VERY close to the access road.

I condemn those who will try to disturb bird nests, especially those who continue to do so EVEN AFTER BEING WARNED.

People have become more rude and generally more selfish these days.

[ Last edited by james10 at 13/06/2010 00:32 ]

Sze

另外，想補充少少野！
當日我並未能令到那位攝影者站離鳥巢多一些，
實在有點不開心！
但不開心的原因不在於我"輸"了！
而是我沒有辦法幫到那巢黑卷尾！

攝影者站遠一些，對鳥兒一定是只有利，沒有害！
對這巢黑卷尾只有好，沒有壞！
（恕我思想不夠多角度，我真的想不到任何害處！）

但攝影者站得遠些，攝影者"輸"的只是相片質素，
那如果真如那位攝影者所說，她也是愛動物的話，
那為何她要與我爭辯？她要與我鬥氣？
她的目的是要拗贏我嗎？
在事件內，我只是旁觀者，
輸與贏跟我實扯不上任何關係！
（只是"蝕"了給人對著大聲說話十多分鐘！）
我又不是要霸佔她的位置，
要她站遠後，我乘機站近！
為何她要將我趕走方肯罷休？
是動物天生的領域問題？
還是她更關注的，是愛護動物以外的其他事情？

遺憾的，處於弱方的動物似乎總是輸家，
今次就是那巢黑卷尾！

lkatherine

Photographers have been standing next to the nest for days. This morning (Sunday) as I cycle by there were at least 7 people standing/sitting right next to the tree, some one even use a ladder to get better angle, helpless! Vegetation next to that tree obviously has been "managed" in some way that it is not blocking the cameras. I can't understand why they need to stand so close given their "super big" lens.

I did saw Sze talking to that rude lady (sorry Sze, can't give you any help at that moment), these people seems to be more "pure photographers" than bird lovers, can only find the photos on other webpages rather than on this BBS.

http://www.dcfever.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=669116&t=669116&page=184
http://www.forum4hk.com/viewthread.php?tid=13795&sid=2lg70Q
http://www.dchome.net/viewthread.php?tid=886738

Plese could anyone who use the above forum forward this thread to these forum.

Feel sorry for the Drongo.

Katherine

kmike

Section 5 of the Wild Animals Protection Ordinance states:
Protection of nests and eggs
No person shall, except in accordance with a special permit, take, remove,
injure, destroy or wilfully disturb a nest or egg of any protected wild
animal. (Amended 58 of 1980 s. 3; 77 of 1996 s. 4)
http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/ord/170/s5.html


If you see this happening again, please collect evidence of the disturbance (number of photographers, how close to the nest, removal of branches for a better view etc) and contact Mr Yam Wing Yiu the AFCD officer responsible for the nature wardens at 2474 2591 or simply go directly to the Mai Po Warden Post and inform the nature wardens.

Mike Kilburn

pasha

Quote:

原帖由 lkatherine 於 13/06/2010 09:15 發表
Photographers have been standing next to the nest for days. This morning (Sunday) as I cycle by there were at least 7 people standing/sitting right next to the tree, some one even use a ladder to get  ...

唔好意思!!
閣下其中一條連結之相片,是本人所拍的.
但閣下把本人之照片放在妳的文章之下,好像把本人說成其中一份子.實屬不公平.
閣下有否親眼見到本人拍攝,親眼見到本人拍攝之距離呢!?
我想一定沒有!因我拍攝當日只有我一人!!更不是閣下所提及之日期時間!!鳥兒拍得大,並不代表拍攝者一定要走得近!!這點我想不用加以說明!!大部份鳥攝的愛好者,都是熱愛雀鳥,喜歡雀鳥之仕!絕不會做出傷害或影響鳥兒安居生活之行為.
希望閣下請不要用有色眼鏡去看待鳥攝人仕,將一群愛鳥之仕當成生態罪犯!!
反之在我拍攝當日,眼見有數名村民,走到塘邊,探身出外觀看鳥巢幼鳥.還說幼鳥大了很多.我想他們之行為遠比攝影人仕更加滋擾.

令希望閣下能移除本人相片之連結.不要在不知情下,對本人作出不公平之評論!!謝謝!!
(本人文筆較差,如有冒犯.敬請見諒)

james10

Pasha, I do not think lkatherine intended to point fingers to any particular photographers.

If you really think that you did not disturb the bird, you can just calmly say so.

Honestly, I think that the villagers are actually more caring to the drongo than the photographers - as you have pointed out they cared for the growth of the chicks.

There is no need to become all defensive at such a small issue - people will only become even more suspicious of you if you do.

cwho

絕對認同大家對雀鳥的關愛, 絕對同意拍攝雀鳥時應保持距離, 特別是對鳥巢的觀察及拍攝, 更應加倍小心. 我今日都有去睇過, 情況實在是令人擔心及前所未見, 有震撼感! 一大群攝友及器材靠得如此這麼近, 二~三米的距離, 開始時都覺得太過份, 但觀察短時間後, 發覺那對黑卷尾好像已明白這堆人對牠們一家沒攻擊性, 不停地來回餵養幼鳥, 還會站到後面電燈柱後觀看這群攝友. 人怕出名豬怕肥, 這巢黑巻尾現在已名聞本港, 今日所見, 已有很多拍友(從外表看應不是有經驗的觀鳥人士)來湊熱鬧, 希望這對黑巻尾能支持下去吧! 但有一樣更要擔心的, 便是幼鳥很快要學飛, 巢下便是水, 不知能否拉片安全網, 否則真是要上天保祐, 幼鳥自己爭氣, 千萬不要掉出巢啊!

Sze

Katherine! 不用 feel sorry! 係個個場面多一個人加入只會多一個人俾佢鬧，但絕不會對件事有任何正面的改變，因為佢一開始的表現已經告訴我，她是不會聆聽我任何的說話，只是我任性地想試下有沒有神蹟出現吧！所以真的不用介意，你的做法是明智的！

pasha! 我想 katherine 沒有意思指責任何個別人士，
或指責鳥攝人士是生態罪犯，
她只是隨便在網上找到一些那巢黑卷尾照片給大家看看，
並希望有使用這些forum的朋友幫忙在這些forum
提出近攝鳥巢會帶來的問題！
如果你沒有傷害那巢幼鳥，你可以在這裡說明就可以，
大家會明白的！不用擔心大家會以有色眼鏡去看你！

另外，我有些觀點想跟大家再分享一下。

對於怎樣的距離是遠，怎樣算近，其實是很虛無，沒有劃一準則。
打些比喻，有雀鳥在我5米前，對於我來說我覺得已是很近，但有些朋友可能仍然覺得很遠，未夠近。有其他動物或人進入5米的距離，對於習慣跟人生活的麻雀來說，牠可能仍覺得很遠，牠可能不會理會，甚至走來向人討吃。但對於繁殖中的黑翅長腳鷸來說，牠可能以箭速飛出來打退敵人。

懂飛的非繁殖中的成鳥覺得被騷擾的話，牠可以選擇飛走。但對於繁殖中的成鳥，巢、蛋跟幼鳥可是牠們的命根，如非必要牠們大都不會棄巢，而是拼命保護他們的巢、蛋及幼鳥。但是要牠們長時間處於擔驚受怕，長時間處於戒備狀態，如果是真的關心鳥兒的朋友，又於心何忍？

對於怎樣才算是傷害？又是另一個很虛無，沒有劃一準則的問題。
又打些比喻，如果捉了那些鳥或蛋去吃，或是殺死了那些鳥，打破那些蛋，我想大家都會認同，這是「傷害」，這些是很具體的，大家都一致認同的傷害！但有時傷害不一定是具體的，又不是大家一致認同的。就像鳥巢的攝影活動，一個人站得遠遠的（如：10米外，或是隔了一條水道），靜靜的不動，問題可能不大。但如果人數增至5個，距離減至5米，我覺得已經會有問題，雖然未造成傷害，卻有一定的影響，但有些朋友可能仍覺得沒有問題的。當人數增至20人，距離保持5米，覺得有問題的朋友可能又會多些。但大家應該可以估計到當有一個朋友知道巢位後，半日後可能已經會增至20人或以上知道，數日後可能已增至過百人，甚至幾百人知道。這幾百人可能不會全部前往，但如果只要有50-100人站在那兒圍拍那巢時，大家又覺得如何呢？但最重要的問題並不應該著眼於「我們」覺得／爭辯這有沒有問題，而是鳥兒覺得有沒有問題，因為受害者是牠們。如果親鳥一直肯繼續餵鳥的話，那是否就代表圍觀的人數可以繼續增加下去，直至牠忍受不了而棄巢離去嗎？我們真的有需要去「找出」這個極限嗎？

有些朋友可能會覺得我多慮了，因為錦田的斑斑不是很好嗎？但我想說是斑斑的巢是在樹上的，只要大家不爬上樹，又如果斑斑不喜歡的牠仍可以選擇跳到樹上較高的位置，地理上牠仍有選擇的空間，但這次黑卷尾巢的位置是伸手可及的，是沒路可逃的。馬路對面的電燈柱及巢位的樹頂就是親鳥唯一一個又可看守鳥巢，又可以退開少許的地方。在孵蛋初期，牠們是會一驚就飛到對面的魚塘，並超過15分鐘都不會回巢的，我想只是因為去到孵蛋後期及幼鳥出世了，親鳥不能離巢太遠及太久，而被迫要留守在巢附近吧！而且初出生的雛鳥因為沒有太多脂肪，而且還未長出毛，所以是很易凍死及餓死的，親鳥如果不「密集式」餵食，以最短時間餵大雛鳥的話，如果萬一又遇上大雷雨，氣溫下降，為了保護雛鳥親鳥又不能出外找吃的話，小黑卷尾一定會兇多吉少！

另外，pasha提及的村民問題，我想說的，村民在那兒長期生活及活動，鳥兒習慣了跟他們生活，是需要一段不短的日子去適應的，鳥兒是認得他們的，是相信他們不會傷害牠們才會選擇在這裡築巢。而這份信任不是短短一兩個小時，或一兩次探望可以建立到的。就如我有時去到一些我沒有到過的村落去觀察家燕餵養幼鳥時，親鳥也會因為害怕我而不敢回巢餵食，牠會站在遠處監視我，直至我一離開牠們就會立即返巢餵食。此外，我也試過觀察一巢八哥，我雖然躲在樹下，但牠們仍知道我的存在，而咬著毛蟲站在樹頂不肯回巢，跟我對峙了約10分鐘，最後是我放棄了，因我怕餓壞幼鳥。我想說的是「村民走到塘邊探身出外觀看鳥巢幼鳥」不一定比攝影人士帶來更大的干擾，因為村民是鳥兒的鄰居，而我們其他非村民都只是「村外的陌生人」，親民如家燕，八哥都有如此戒心，那何妨是一向怕人的黑卷尾？

說到這裡，我想一定有朋友說：「你憑什麼肯定攝影人士會影響到牠們？」。是的！我沒有辦法跟黑卷尾用言語溝通，詢問牠是否害怕。我是基於我這幾年的巡巢及觀鳥經驗，再加上之前兩次對牠們的觀察而作出大膽的推測。可是，我想我這個推測對牠們一定是有利而沒有害，因為我想沒有鳥兒會「很喜歡」給人觀察牠的鳥巢吧！而唯一的壞處就只是累了大家沒有機會影「爆框相」吧！

我沒有說不容許大家影這個巢，但是我想請大家將心比己，究竟是黑卷尾的幼鳥成功長大緊要些？還是大家影「爆框相」緊要些？愛護雀鳥不是單單貼幾張靚相上forum，不是單單說聲：「我愛雀鳥」就真的是愛。如果大家真的是愛牠們的話，為何不可退後到馬路對面？為何不可見人開始多時，已影到的朋友就讓位給剛到步的朋友，令在場的人數不會過多？一些簡單的「讓步及犧牲」，已可舒緩我們對牠們的壓迫感，問題只在於大家是愛自己的佳作多些，還是愛鳥兒多些吧！

[ Last edited by Sze at 14/06/2010 12:13 ]

cjacky

呀SZE, 你影響到佢既利益, 佢實呱呱叫架啦. 想必, 佢當時只想住影, 唔會想到可能發生既壞事情.  自私的人, 實惜口多多.

我知道個巢係邊, 但係我從未係果到停多過一分鐘. 唔想吸引咁多奇人異士. 好可惜, 實在太開陽啦......

而家好多人都要影到100分, 影到又點個心黑色既 !

[ Last edited by cjacky at 14/06/2010 01:16 ]

ajohn

I'm sorry that I cannot read the Chinese posts on the thread, so may be slightly behind on the latest discussion.

I have been past the nest on Saturday, Sunday and Monday this week. On each occasion I have stopped and asked people to move back, expaining how their presence may result in disturbance to the nest. Most people have ignored my arguments, although some have pointed out that the birds are still visiting the nest. Nobody has moved away from the nest. I sympathise for Sze, who seems to have been intimidated by the photographers more than I have.

This morning, when I arrived, the adult bird was perched in the tree carrying food. I moved back from the nest and watched from a safe distance (probably 3-4 times the distance of the photographers!) During a period of 5 mintues, the adult remained near the nest, showing itself to be agitated by flicking its tail constantly. After 5 minutes, it actually flew away from the nest, and I think ate the food itself rather than feeding the chicks. To me, this is clear evidence that the photographers are indeed causing too much disturbance, and are risking the success of the nest. I pointed this out to the photographers, and pointed out that their actions are probably illegal (as explained by Mike above). Nobody moved.

I have now reported the case to AFCD in the hope that they may be able to take some action.

To make matters more frustrating, I personally find that the photos linked to by Katherine are not aesthetically pleasing anyway, with the subject far too large in the frame, and no context to the nest. The large cameras present should be able to take good photographs from a greater distance, and therefore not cause disturbance to the bird. Of course, at the moment I do not know who any of the photographers are, and I do not intend to point fingers in this post. I hope any members of the HKBWS would have more sense than to cause this disturbance to a wild bird, and as Katherine has pointed out there are no photos posted on this website In my opinion, it does not seem appropriate for anyone who is intentionally causing such disturbance to be a member of the bird watching society or to be allowed access into a sensitive wildlife reserve such as Mai Po.

Tony

Agree with what John said!

I visit Mai Po yerterday for survey. Photographers were already arrived before 7:30 in the morning and a group of 10 photographers. I don't know what happened originally until I saw the nest. I was standing aside and looking at them for 10 minute but they keep aggregate next to the nest. You can just hear the shutter sound once the Black Drongo feed the chicks.

Most photographers look unfamiliar to me, not those who used to be behaved proper. Although it is not the first case for taking photo for nesting bird in HK (like the Kam Tin Collar Scops Owl). But this time, it is too over to stand that close to the them.
Even they claim the bird did come back to feed. But it is different to what "it used to be".
During the survey in Long Velley, I found breeding birds (Black collared Starling and White-shoulder Starling) find food to feed chicks very frequently. The parents back to them nest alternately every 1-2 minutes. But it did not happen to what I observed for this Drongo.

The parent definitely looks alert each visit coming back to the nest. It stood aside first and take more than 30 seconds before getting back the nest. It is a symptom of disturbance. I hope everyone can do for the sake of the birds. It is not easy to rear three nestlings and some of them may even die as well.........

What we act are educating our next generation and the public. Think twice before we act!

[ Last edited by Tony at 14/06/2010 10:49 ]

觀鳥新丁

漁護署能處理嗎? 攝影人仕是不會聽的? 我有此經驗? 結果, 都係用官用處理.

Sze

Sorry John! Since my poor English, I don't know how to translate all my Chinese content into English! I just share some my little opinion and suggestion!

It will be a BIG HELP if anyone can simply translate some point of my Chinese content into English for John! Many Thousand THANKS!

Sze

唔好意思!
另外, 再想加少少意見!
有些朋友可能說，咁擔心個巢不如叫AFCD封路啦！　
但我想如果拍攝人數繼續增加的話，
就算AFCD不封路，條路都會多人到村民同車都行唔到！　
我想說的是，有些事，如果大家不自律，除了對雀鳥有影響外，　
對周圍環境及其他市民，特別是村民的日常生活會有很大影響的！
我真係唔想有上次"棉花鴨"的事再次發生啊！
有興趣的可以看看第三期 hkwildlife E-mag，
野生雀鳥的十個苦，最後那頁的後話！

http://www.hkwildlife.net/redirect.php?tid=55796&goto=newpost

ying

   今早所見，警察到場觀察十分鐘後無任何表示而離開，漁護處其後到場觀察大約二十分鐘，離開前與拍攝人仕閒談，內容為:未發覺現場人仕騷擾鳥巢，亦理解大家因為要拍攝故冇任何理由會騷擾雀鳥，可繼續拍攝。及後一名曾在無任何保護下赤手捉拿錦田班班BB之男子(此乃違法行為，後果可大可小！請勿學習！)帶同一名小孩到場意圖吩咐在場人仕排隊拍攝不果！該男子以報警作要脅！此無知行為當然不能有效，及後此人使出一拍兩散之下策！走到鳥巢最近之處竟然意圖嚇走黑券尾父母兼防碍拍攝人仕！此舉實令人髮指！幸好黑券尾未受其惡行所威嚇，繼續餵飼，其同行小童一見鳥兒飛至，立即舉機拍攝，快門聲響不絶！其快 ; 狠 ; 凖！實在令人為之側目，實久經訓練也！此人惡行持續期間，黑卷尾來回不下十數次！此人見其惡行不得要領，而事實擺在眼前所謂騷擾實屬無稽之談！又見其同行小童長時間暴曬於烈日當空之下，(可憐該小孩其間滴水未沾！)只好如鬥敗公雞垂頭離去，其人離開後黑券尾仍不斷餵飼幼雛，直至下雨券尾始停哺以身護雛！母愛之偉大實感人也！

tmichael

Although I have been living and birding in HK for nearly 23 years now I rarely go to Mai Po these days,especially not "out of season", but would just like to underline that John A's comments are carefully weighed and politely phrased. however, they undoubtledly also have the weight of the HK law behind them ("Act now!" Police). These hobbyist photographers it seems are not only causing massive stress to the poor birds in question, but actually breaking the law, which was never framed to protect the birds from them, but nonetheless serves to do so, since their disturbance is the same that the massively less-educated might have provided, say, 30 years ago.

Mike Turnbull

Webcreeper

如果有人拍到現塲照片，請貼出來讓大家評評理。

參與拍攝的人請撫心自問：
平日常見的麻雀見人接近要會走開，
你何以可以肯定鳥兒對攝影師真的沒有任何戒心呢？
如果不是要養活雛鳥，黑卷尾絕對不會回巢。
那麼多人圍著一隻小鳥，令牠承受著心理壓力，
拍出來的照片值得公開示人嗎？

Would anyone who has taken photos of the site please post them here,
so that we may see how close they are.

For those who had taken part in the photo-taking:
Even a sparrow would shy away from people.
How can you be so sure that the nesting drongos won't mind your presence?
If the chicks were not there, the Drongos would never return to the nest.
What is the value of photos taken by stressing a small bird?

ying

Quote:

Original posted by Webcreeper at 14/06/2010 23:41
如果有人拍到現塲照片，請貼出來讓大家評評理。

參與拍攝的人請撫心自問：
平日常見的麻雀見人接近要會走開，
你何以可以肯定鳥兒對攝影師真的沒有任何戒心呢？
如果不是要養活雛鳥，黑卷尾絕對不會回巢。
那麼多人圍著一隻小 ...

真係要相？

Sze

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 00:06

真係要相？

如果是問心無愧的，何需惶恐？
何不拿出證據去證明自己的清白？

sbena

Taken yesterday (14 June 2010)

Sze

Bena! Thanks for sharing!

Agree with Katherine, some vegetation next to that tree obviously has been "managed"

[ Last edited by Sze at 15/06/2010 11:01 ]

ajohn

Here are a couple of low-quality photos from this morning.
When I went past, there were 11 photographers this morning, and 2 more arriving as I left. Some of the people I recognised from both Sunday AND Monday (and possibly also Saturday). I know that AFCD visited the site yesterday, but it seems that nothing will stop these photographers.

The most worrying news was that I could only see 2 chicks begging when one of the adults visited. It is possible there are still 3 chicks and I couldn't see one. When I asked the photographers told me that there are still 3, but even so I am worried about whether one chick has been lost already.

It's interesting to know that other bird watchers have noticed this activity and share my concerns about how close these photographers are to the nest.

[Edit: Second photo remove to prevent causing offence]

[ Last edited by ajohn at 17/06/2010 08:32 ]

ying

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 00:31


如果是問心無愧的，何需惶恐？
何不拿出證據去證明自己的清白？

我何需惶恐？只因此處道聽途說皆可作凖！此次竟然要相片作證！此為雙重標準也！你要相片公審此人？然！

[ Last edited by ying at 15/06/2010 11:33 ]

Sze

Ying！先謝過你的環境記錄照，明白亦認同要求人之前也應該先要求自己，你所提及的「赤手捉拿錦田班班BB之男子」（以下簡稱斑斑先生），我想可能因為愛鳥心切而過於激動做了一些可能跟他要求別人做的事不相符的事，這個是斑斑先生日後需要改進的地方。但為公平起見，也敢問Ying你當日是站在什麼位置拍攝黑卷尾巢呢？可否麻煩你也陳述一下呢？

另外，Ying你在回覆17中詳述的都是斑斑先生跟他兒子的行為問題，卻沒有提及其他在場的人士有沒有其他問題，此舉難免令人感覺有點是針對人而不是針對事的討論，特別是你用一個豬頭圖案覆蓋斑斑先生的臉，雖然圖案好可愛，但這個動物圖案難免令人多作其他聯想。如果你是希望大家不要倣效斑斑先生的做法，我想大家已經收到及明白，如果大家是認同你的意見，自會有版友留言支持。但如果你想以陳述斑斑先生的行為以轉移大家的注意力，不集中討論「Avoid disturbance to birds around nests 請勿干擾雀鳥營巢」的話，那我想你似乎是支持「多人一起近攝黑卷尾巢不會對雀鳥帶來影響」，對嗎？又如果你是支持的一方，為了大家能作出準確的討論，可否麻煩你提出其他更切題的論點及論證，例如：「為何你們應為近攝黑卷尾巢不會對雀鳥帶來影響？」又或者「為何你們認為沒有需要增加拍攝者跟鳥巢的距離」等等。

靜待你進一步的意見分享！謝謝！

[ Last edited by Sze at 15/06/2010 13:01 ]

HKBWS Vicky

觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則 Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Photography
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=2663&extra=page%3D1

觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則 Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Photography
香港觀鳥會的宗旨，是研究、欣賞和保育本地的鳥類，並且促進鳥友間的交流，分享觀鳥方面的經驗和資訊。
近來在香港觀鳥和拍攝鳥類照片的人愈來愈多，而鳥類對干擾又比較敏感，進行相關活動時需要留意，以免影響雀鳥的正常生活。
為了讓大家認識到應有的操守，本會執行委員會特地制定了以下守則，作為良好行為的模範，供各會員和廣大市民參考。

1.　以鳥為先

無論是觀鳥或拍攝鳥類照片，都要以儘量不影響鳥類的正常活動為原則，避免造成干擾。

　　a.　如果發現雀鳥顯得不安、有規避或其他異常反應，便要馬上停止
　　b.　如果在場拍攝和觀看的人太多，尤其要特別留意
　　c.　不要企圖影響雀鳥的行為，如驚嚇、驅趕或使用誘餌
　　d.　少用閃光燈
　　e.　不要破壞自然環境

2.　保護敏感地點

雀鳥的營巢地點、有海鳥繁殖的小島、稀有鳥種停棲的地點等都特別容易受到干擾，要加倍留意。

　　a.　保持適當距離，避免令雀鳥受到脅逼
　　b.　不要登上有海鳥繁殖的小島
　　c.　不要干擾鳥巢或周圍的植被，以免親鳥棄巢或招來天敵襲擊
　　d.　小心和別人分享敏感地點的位置，不要隨便公開，並向不認識守則的人清楚解釋，以免帶來干擾
　　e.　留意自己的行為，以防招惹好奇的人來干擾

3.　舉報干擾

如果發現有人干擾或傷害雀鳥，在安全情況下宜向他們解釋和勸止。
如果未能阻止，請拍照記錄，並儘快向漁農自然護理署舉報，同時將事件在本會網上論壇報告。

4.　尊重他人

　　a.　避免干擾其他在場觀鳥和拍攝的人，讓大家都可以享受其中的樂趣
　　b.　小心不要破壞當地的設施和農作物

Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Bird Photography
The objective of HKBWS is to promote the study, appreciation and conservation of birds in Hong Kong.  In addition, the Society also facilitates the exchange of experience and information related to birdwatching.  In recent years, more and more people in Hong Kong become interested in birdwatching and bird photography.  Since birds are sensitive to disturbance, special care is required to avoid bringing disturbance to their lives.  In order to provide a model for good practices in birdwatching and bird photography, the Society’s Executive Committee has drawn up the following code.  It is intended to be a reference for both HKBWS members and the general public.


1.　The Welfare of Birds Comes First

Birdwatching and bird photography should be carried out with minimum interference to the birds. Disturbance must be avoided as far as possible.
　　a.　Stop if the birds appear disturbed, begin to move away or exhibit other abnormal reaction
　　b.　Exercise additional precautions when the activity is undertaken with a large group of people
　　c.　Do not attempt to influence the behaviour of birds, e.g. by flushing, chasing or baiting
　　d.　Use flash only sparingly
　　e.　Do not damage the natural environment

2.  Protect Sensitive Sites

Sites such as nests, seabird colonies and the roost of rarities are particularly vulnerable. Take extra care to minimize disturbance.

　　a.　Keep a suitable distance to avoid stressing the birds
　　b.　Do not land on islands with breeding colonies
　　c.　Do not disturb nests and their surrounding vegetation, or the nest could be abandoned or become exposed to predators
　　d.　Share information about the sites with discretion and do not reveal it casually in public.  Explain clearly to those who may not understand the Code, to avoid bringing disturbance to the site
　　e.　Beware that your actions may attract unwanted attention and hence disturbance to the site

3.　Report Disturbances

If you find people disturbing or causing harm to birds, advise against the act when it is safe to do so.  If they cannot be stopped, take photos and report to the AFCD as soon as possible.  Post a report at the Society’s online Forum.

4.　Respect Others

　　a.　Share the fun – avoid disturbing other birdwatchers or photographers on site.
　　b.　Take care not to damage facilities or crops at the site.

老抽

容我弱弱的问一句
鸟巢建得那么近路边
是否有其他原因ing?
比如说......是为了不被麻鹰之类的猛禽攻击,而选择更靠近人类而建呢?
有这个可能吗?

edwardkwong

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 14/06/2010 22:50
   今早所見，警察到場觀察十分鐘後無任何表示而離開，漁護處其後到場觀察大約二十分鐘，離開前與拍攝人仕閒談，內容為:未發覺現場人仕騷擾鳥巢，亦理解大家因為要拍攝故冇任何理由會騷擾雀鳥，可繼續拍攝。及後一名曾在無任何保 ...

如ying 師兄/師姊所說的一樣 :[ 千真萬確, 如實報導 ]

斑斑先生當日行為真係過於偏激(有可能係愛鳥心切,但始終噤大個人,還為人師表....就有點 )

其實當天如ying圖片一樣, 眾人就如站在或坐在{斑斑先生的兒子舉機拍攝黑卷尾巢}的附近不遠!!

可惜當日斑斑先生的所謂的勸喻和表達真的沒有好好技巧[如果溫和一點的話，相信效果會好很多很多,可能就不會發生這樣無謂的爭論]

當日由於斑斑先生見報警作要脅不果後, 竟然最後採取一拍倆散, 站在最近黑卷尾巢的位 (反面教材, 大家不要學)
當在場的人士曾要求想安靜拍攝 和勸喻斑斑先生不要站在黑卷尾巢的最近, (個程中,有些攝友的器材被接觸引來不滿),不過, 當然斑斑先生不妥協啦!
爭論中, 斑斑先生還親口認自己所作的行為是無賴鬥氣行為, 目的一來阻住你們影, 二來可能想試吓呢個距離對黑券尾餵飼有冇影響(事實上, 這段持續期間，黑卷尾真係來回好多次好多次！小弟選擇相信這距離拍攝不會有太大問題, 不過大要小心太近趺落水)  

還有很多師兄可以作証, 大家可發表一下, 希望下次不會有同樣事情再發生啦!

[ Last edited by edwardkwong at 15/06/2010 15:50 ]

wcaptain

請問拍友當時是否保持低聲談話，還是高談闊論？有時繁殖雀鳥也怕人聲。

黑卷尾天生膽大，例如主動攻擊飛過麻鷹。但不代表可容忍十多個壯漢在身邊坐定定看著自己的整個生仔過程。雀鳥的保護工作還是比拍鳥重要。拍鳥者還是要自律。

How about noise generated by the photographers? Sometimes breeding birds also threatened by human noise.

Black Drongo can be very aggressive, e.g. they attack pass-by Black Kites. But it does not imply that they can accept several big guys sitting nearby and staring their whole breeding process.

Priority should always be given to protection of birds. Self-discipline is important.

edwardkwong

Quote:

Original posted by cwho at 13/06/2010 19:52
絕對認同大家對雀鳥的關愛, 絕對同意拍攝雀鳥時應保持距離, 特別是對鳥巢的觀察及拍攝, 更應加倍小心. 我今日都有去睇過, 情況實在是令人擔心及前所未見, 有震撼感! 一大群攝友及器材靠得如此這麼近, 二~三米的距離, ...

sorry!!不是說師兄說謊, 不過有二~三米的距離咁近???, 我見有些師兄都用 600mm /f4 vr 冇tube 至少要5m 啦??? 我估都有6m 左右

[ Last edited by edwardkwong at 15/06/2010 16:25 ]

cwchan

“ The welfare of the subject is more important than the photograph. “  This is the spirit of Nature photographers, RPS.

The Nature Group of The Royal Photographic Society, UK, has produced a set of Cod of Practice for the members to follow.

The following is extracted for reference,

“Photography should not be undertaken if it puts the subject at risk. Risk to the subject, in this context, means risk of disturbance, physical damage, causing anxiety, consequential predation, and lessened reproductive success.”

For birds at the nest. there is also strict control for the photographers to follow .

For details, please click the following path to see,
http://www.rpsnaturegroup.com/page7.htm


There is absolutely no contradiction between a genuine Nature photographers and bird watchers.

[ Last edited by cwchan at 15/06/2010 16:56 ]

edwardkwong

Quote:

Original posted by wcaptain at 15/06/2010 15:50
請問拍友當時是否保持低聲談話，還是高談闊論？有時繁殖雀鳥也怕人聲。

黑卷尾天生膽大，例如主動攻擊飛過麻鷹。但不代表可容忍十多個壯漢在身邊坐定定看著自己的整個生仔過程。雀鳥的保護工作還是比拍鳥重要。拍鳥者還是 ...

小弟11:30am到, 師兄們一直都保持低聲談話, 直至到斑斑先生來到

edwardkwong

Quote:

Original posted by 老抽 at 15/06/2010 15:33
容我弱弱的问一句
鸟巢建得那么近路边
是否有其他原因ing?
比如说......是为了不被麻鹰之类的猛禽攻击,而选择更靠近人类而建呢?
有这个可能吗? ...

咩都有可能, 我們又不能代替那黑券尾說話, 點解呢隻噤唔驚人, 其他又噤驚人, 其實大家都係估吓估吓 ............(不扮專家 )

stephenlwb8

May be I am a bit naive...common sense to me if a group of people pointing their telelens closely towards your home for hours and speaking loudly (if this is the case), how do you feel ? May be some Ching will enjoy it but definitely not me

[ Last edited by stephenlwb8 at 15/06/2010 17:22 ]

pasha

Quote:

原帖由 wcaptain 於 15/06/2010 15:50 發表
請問拍友當時是否保持低聲談話，還是高談闊論？有時繁殖雀鳥也怕人聲。

黑卷尾天生膽大，例如主動攻擊飛過麻鷹。但不代表可容忍十多個壯漢在身邊坐定定看著自己的整個生仔過程。雀鳥的保護工作還是比拍鳥重要。拍鳥者還是 ...

其實本人下午才到達，到達時眼見一眾攝影人仕，都是坐在相片中的位置，靜靜在守候！並沒有作出太大的聲響。直到斑斑先生之出現！

Sze

各位! 這位先生的處理手法有問題, 各位已經說過, 大家亦已清楚，各位可以說他今次的處理手法是一個反面教材，他的行為令到他變得沒有說服力，我沒有異議。但我想問是否因為他的處理手法有問題，大家就可以近攝鳥巢呢？如果你覺得近攝鳥巢是沒有問題的話，我想大家樂意細看各位的意見，但請不要不停只是將討論重覆又重覆的放在這位先生的身上，"他的問題" 並不是一個支持大家近攝鳥巢，或是令我們放棄要求大家 "增加拍攝者跟鳥巢距離" 的理據，這點希望,也請各位留意！

Sze

Quote:

Original posted by 老抽 at 15/06/2010 15:33
容我弱弱的问一句
鸟巢建得那么近路边
是否有其他原因ing?
比如说......是为了不被麻鹰之类的猛禽攻击,而选择更靠近人类而建呢?
有这个可能吗? ...

可不知道! 可能是, 但也可能是其他原因!
雀鳥選擇築巢的地方, 一定有其原因, 只是我們未能理解!
但任何原因也好, 也不代表我們可以過份干擾其生活!

Sze

今日收到朋友的消息,話AFCD昨日安裝的告示牌,今日已被拆毀了,
至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!

ying

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 20:21
各位! 這位先生的處理手法有問題, 各位已經說過, 大家亦已清楚，各位可以說他今次的處理手法是一個反面教材，他的行為令到他變得沒有說服力，我沒有異議。但我想問是否因為他的處理手法有問題，大家就可以近攝鳥巢呢？如果你覺 ...

版友留言支持作証不對？不能提及？

Sze

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 21:09

版友留言支持作証不對？不能提及？

不是不能提及! 我是說:
"他的問題" 並不是一個支持大家近攝鳥巢，
或是令我們放棄要求大家 "增加拍攝者跟鳥巢距離" 的理據，
這點希望,也請各位留意！

大家都是成年人, 佢既問題佢自己要承擔返,
但同樣大家既問題亦要自己承擔返,
請不要只是用人地都做得差來做藉口!
人地做得差, 不代表大家可以跟佢一齊差, 甚至更差!
如果你覺得自己做得對,沒問題的話,
請講出更多切題的論點及證據,
而不是不停將討論重點轉移到聲討某人大行動!
這不是一個健康的討論!

kkitty

今日到過現場 (約中午時份), AFCD 的告示牌尚在.

Beetle

Quote:

Original posted by kkitty at 15/06/2010 21:27
今日到過現場 (約中午時份), AFCD 的告示牌尚在.

有興趣知道告示的內容及位置等有關資料!想看一看AFCD對此事的做法!
有朋友有告示的相片或記得大概的文字嗎?

ying

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 12:44
Ying！先謝過你的環境記錄照，明白亦認同要求人之前也應該先要求自己，你所提及的「赤手捉拿錦田班班BB之男子」（以下簡稱斑斑先生），我想可能因為愛鳥心切而過於激動做了一些可能跟他要求別人做的事不相符的事，這個是斑斑先生日 ...

輕輕一句 '班班先生日後改進'就不經意帶走錯誤行為，老朋也！追查我之位置？告知閣下亦無不可，在下所處位置，可算最後一個，但亦不外乎比師兄們後一點而矣，經已危坐馬路！再後就會横屍米埔！在場本就氣氛融洽，亦聽聞有鳥攝入仕乃來自深圳，鳥哺人攝，只聞失打聲，未見擾巢人，當惡人到位！方起爭執！其間有師兄勞氣，亦由其他師兄勸服，至於論及小孩 ; 是覺實在無辜，小兒何罪？竟受曝日煎熬之苦！惻隱之心，人皆有之！錯乎？而所書之事，何以與題目無關？正正是 '來訴擾巢者最是擾巢人'！合乎題之原意，因何不可？更甚者閣下相片挑骨？然！先問 ajohn 所登之相片，無遮無掩！相片中師兄人權何在！！！外國月亮圓乎？專家位高不敢訴？再述豬頭圖案 ; 與班班先生之名何異？班班較可觀乎？聯想之罪從何說！閣下欲加之罪 ; 何患無詞！要誣人！先閱已！至乎距離問題 ; 公婆各說，現距六米覺近？退後至何處為合，煩請閣下賜教。與其誣吾轉移視線！(惡人先告狀！)不如先大義滅親！以正視聽！方能服衆！

[ Last edited by ying at 15/06/2010 22:28 ]

HFCheung

剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩子打氣，希望牠們成功離巢。
2，大家都在認真學習欣賞這鳥的行為，包括做一些照片/錄像的記錄。

有了這些共通點，我覺大家可以好好協商，定出雙方可以接受的行為規範，我覺得很多資深生態攝影者比我更懂鳥類行為，我希望聽聽他/她們的看法及建議。

張浩輝

kkitty

Quote:

Original posted by Beetle at 15/06/2010 22:08

有興趣知道告示的內容及位置等有關資料!想看一看AFCD對此事的做法!
有朋友有告示的相片或記得大概的文字嗎?

我今日去, 不是為了影相, 所以冇帶相機.

至於位置, 向塘方向, 樹前左手面約 1-2 m.

內容 (大慨啦): 不要搔擾鳥巢
(exactly 唔記得了)

ying

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 15/06/2010 22:14
剛看完之前的討論，覺得無奈無謂，類似事情重複又重複，破壞人與人之間的感情。
我個人的看法是大家不要執著，要放開，尋找共通點，拉近距離，打破隔膜。
我來指出一些雙方的共通點：

1，沒有人真心要傷害到這鳥兒，大家都在為母親及孩 ...

立論中肯！

ying

Quote:

Original posted by Sze at 15/06/2010 20:52
今日收到朋友的消息,話AFCD昨日安裝的告示牌,今日已被拆毀了,
至於是什麼情況下被拆毀了, 就不得而知!  

道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

kkitty

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 22:22

道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

咁又未必喎.  之後有邊人 d 到過, 邊個知 ?

Webcreeper

Quote:

Original posted by ying at 15/06/2010 22:22
道聽途說最不該！又一例証！

未核實消息來源，
更不該妄下判斷。