wgeoff

As noted by others, this bird has substantial feather loss behind the left leg



and maybe? some damage below the left foot



Any experts can assess how severe this is?

wgeoff

The left foot again.






Is that damage? It appears to be avoiding putting the left foot flat down in this sequence above by fkkc and also this photo by louislee



Is this noticeable when the bird is walking on the beach?

[ Last edited by wgeoff at 20/03/2016 16:34 ]

wilsondring

from 19/03/16

[ Last edited by wilsondring at 20/03/2016 19:51 ]

ajohn

I'm not convinced that there is an injury to the foot. I think you are seeing a pink web which may look like an injury but is actually colour. Compare the web on this bird http://www.nejohnston.org/Birds/2007/06/Images/DSC03102.jpg (admittedly a different species but I think it shows what I am trying to suggest).

Loons have such short legs that they can't properly 'walk' on land, and usually only push themselves forwards. I think the photos you are linking to just show the bird in the process of moving, with the feet pushing the bird. Compare this bird: http://www.birdinginformation.com/wp-content/gallery/red-throated-loon/red-throated-loon-walking.jpg

This is not to say that there is no damage - the loss of feathers behind the leg seems unusual - just that I am not sure that these photos show there is an injury to the foot.

I'd like to take the opportunity to stress that people should avoid disturbing this bird if it does come back onto land (I understand access to this beach isn't easy and the bird wasn't disturbed for these photos).

[ Last edited by ajohn at 20/03/2016 20:43 ]

kmatthew

Also will like to note here that there was report of a group of people continuously chasing the bird around the bay this morning with a boat, which seems to have stressed it and forcing it to take flight several times in order to get away. Personally I don't see the need to use a boat for such occasion, the bird itself is close enough to shore for photographs and chasing it not only stress the bird out, it may shorten the time which it can feed around the bay to gain strength to move on. Diver straying this close to shore usually indicates that it's not feeling very well, and chasing it may further weakens the bird. I was glad to find that the few birders that remained or visited on Lamma in the afternoon were all well behaved and the bird happily came to the shallows to rest and feed.

You don't need a boat to take shots like this:

wilsondring

Quote:

Original posted by kmatthew at 20/03/2016 21:04
Also will like to note here that there was report of a group of people continuously chasing the bird around the bay this morning with a boat, which seems to have stressed it and forcing it to take fli ...

there were in fact two boats in the harbour with photographers on the morning of 19th and I was in one of them, among the two were also hundreds boats in the harbour.

had you not been on the beach to take this shot, the bird might well have landed on the beach at the time, so who was disturbing the bird?

edited:

i would also like to add that our boat was always well apart from the bird (over 15m) and had we been any closer, it was due to the tides drifting us in and therefore we would have been moving very slowly.  according to locals, the bird has been there since Monday last week and was not afraid of boats in harbour.

[ Last edited by wilsondring at 21/03/2016 07:31 ]

mguy

Excellent treads on several points

kmatthew

Quote:

Original posted by wilsondring at 21/03/2016 07:26


there were in fact two boats in the harbour with photographers on the morning of 19th and I was in one of them, among the two were also hundreds boats in the harbour.

had you not been on the beach  ...

Hi Wilson, thanks for clarifying, I wasn't actually referring to your boat but the boat on the morning of 20th, so no need to put yourself into the seat there. I was referring to people chasing it too much that it actually had to take flight to flee from the boat, and that didn't happen on the 19th, I was well aware because I was there indeed. Was posting merely to remind people not to over chase the bird, and perhaps you are right too, we shouldn't have been on the beach and maybe the bird would have came to shore, who knows. But talking with the locals as well the bird seems to prefer to land on the smaller and less disturbed beach towards the power station, and only landed on the main beach once as far as I know? (Anyone with more information is welcome to comment and shine lights to my ignorance).

rosefinch

The health conditions of the loon is in concerns. I'm not an expert therefore pay more attention not to affecting the loon to feed, sleep or take rest.

I was there on 18/3 Fri when the loon landed on beach once near the restaurant, and I've heard info from some birders  who were on Lamma 19/3 & 20/3 the past weekend.
Here are some observations:

On Friday afternoon, the loon swam very near the popular beach even when 8 people were on the beach(heard the same on Sat morning before boats chasing). So close that even my 400mm lens could have photographed the bird whole in full frame(but I avoided myself to walk that close). Around 3:15pm when no people on the beach only a few birders including me hiding on the right far end of the beach waiting, then the loon finally landed on the popular beach, seemed want to have a short rest while feeding...(actually it attempted serveral times to take rest on that day)

From what I heard from various birders, on Sat morning the loon was still very "tamed", swam close enough to make everybody very happy, but after boats-chasing, it became quite alert and kept distant with people even on Sunday morning. Of course from this forum I knew more that on Sunday one more boat even chased the loon resulted in making it in flight...

I think birders who love and care about birds more than photos may concern:
1) when the birds was so close & "tamed" for photographing & observations if you keep staying on land, even my "short lens" as 400mm is more then enough, what's the convincing reason for people to get on a boat chasing after it(in risk of intimidating it, wasting it's energy)?
2) Obviously some people before getting on boats already heard of some worries about the loon's health conditions & some even suspecting it has difficulty for flying, then not easy to undertand why these people still decided going for boat-chasing unless they didn't care about the well being of the bird...
3) of course since the loon like to landeded on the popular beach resting for a while when feeding, it's very condsiderate of birders not to stay on that beach...but I also believe for that bird, it doesn't count risk of danger directly by distance--when people stayed on land/beach still not to  chase with a distance of say 15 meters, it could  feel comparartively comfortable, but obvously when people were on boats with 15m and pointing several big lens chasing continuously after it, the loon would feel much more threatened or at least intimidated...

More, Sunday afternoon a birder saw when all people stayed on landed while the loon quite distant in the harbour, a local boat tried get close to the bird and threatened it to come back to the beach side. Hope the boat owner were not  intentionally mean to threaten it...

[ Last edited by rosefinch at 21/03/2016 23:28 ]

wilsondring

Quote:

Original posted by rosefinch at 21/03/2016 22:12
The health conditions of the loon is in concerns. I'm not an expert therefore pay more attention not to affecting the loon to feed, sleep or take rest.

I was there on 18/3 Fri when the loon landed on ...

Thank you for casting more confusion into the matter, maybe due to my poor command of English but I only have a limited understanding of what you are trying to say and here is a summary of points which i have taken from your long reply (do correct me if i am wrong or misunderstood any of your points);
1. you are not an expert
2. you own a short lens
3. was there on the friday to see the bird come very close
4. you are most concerned with the well being of the bird, you decided against going to take any photos

The above are facts which you reported, the rest, from your unnamed sources, which contradicts the eye witness who were there; is biased and incorrect at best!

And since this thread has called for experts on the topic of damage to the bird to post their opinion, if you are so concerned with the well being of the bird, please contact WWF/ACFD/HKBWS or even the Police Force maybe more appropriate than posting in this thread.

[ Last edited by wilsondring at 22/03/2016 10:18 ]

fatchun

Quote:

Original posted by wilsondring at 22/03/2016 10:12


Thank you for casting more confusion into the matter, maybe due to my poor command of English but I only have a limited understanding of what you are trying to say and here is a summary of points wh ...

Could you please name some experts with long lens here?
May be we can invite them for discussion.

For your information, I do not have any long lens camera, but I am an experienced birder. Am I entitled to discuss here?

Best regards,

[ Last edited by fatchun at 22/03/2016 12:30 ]

wilsondring

Quote:

Original posted by fatchun at 22/03/2016 12:16


Could you please name some experts with long lens here?
May be we can invite them for discussion.

For your information, I do not have any long lens camera, but I am an experienced birder. Am I enti ...

Interesting how you interpreted my reply and again, probably lost in translation ..

The original poster wrote: Any experts can assess how severe this is?
I believe that Geoff was hoping for discussions on the damage of the bird.  I stand to be corrected, but I personally do not see any relevance of owning a long or short lens to be considered an expert, nor owning any lens at all for that matter.  My above post only pointed out the facts which I gathered from Rosefinch's post.

But to answer your question, I think Peter Wong (Michelle) or Martin Hales maybe considered "experienced birders with long lens" but I doubt neither would claim to be an expert in this field.

Regarding my previous post, I was only hoping that the people posting in this thread would stick to the topic.  If a self-confessed "experienced birder" like yourself wishes to post and share the following information, feel free to;
1/ fatchun is an experienced birder
2/ fatchun does not have a long lens

[ Last edited by wilsondring at 22/03/2016 14:56 ]

dolphin

對不起!我唔識寫英文,令到外國朋友不明我寫乜!亦希望那些我想話佢又英文很好的人不明!
本人近年發現有人經常在香港影雀的時候干擾雀鳥(包括放蟲),當然放蟲引雀在全世界都有正反爭議,有朋友影到有關人士的"善行"片段,我正鼓勵他公開,當有人口口聲聲扮到幾咁愛鳥,背後卻放蟲,趕雀,仲要對號入座,又要扮專家,其實連一點常識及生態道德的人,真是禮義廉!敬希我指責的人睇唔明!人在做天在看!
對不起!我應該不會回對號入座的人!
一個觀鳥多年的非會員路人甲

dolphin

其實連一點常識及生態道德都無的人

ctakming

1. The topic is originally for discussion of the feather loss and the health of the loon. Noone has given a name of those people who hired a boat for following the loon. Who changed the direction of discussion?
2. The loon was not afraid of hundreds of boats in the harbour because those boats were not chasing after it. Obviously, the loon was continuously swimming away from the chasing boats in order to keep a safe distance from them.
3. The loon wants to rest on beach due to unknown reason. If someone said the people on the beach were disturbing the bird, why he decided to become one of those "disturber" in the subsequent hours of the day and on the following days?
4. If all other consistent information given by many people who were present in the scene is biased and incorrect, why his information is the only reliable source?

BTW, it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone who did something wrong but deny it by telling lies to other people not in the scene.
Sorry, my English is terrible because it is not a necessity in my life.

wilsondring

Quote:

Original posted by ctakming at 22/03/2016 17:57
1. The topic is originally for discussion of the feather loss and the health of the loon. Noone has given a name of those people who hired a boat for following the loon. Who changed the direction of d ...

Some interesting points you make Chief Justice Ming.

1.        “The topic WAS originally for the discussion of the feather loss.”
Indeed, and by posting slightly higher resolution photos taken with a slightly longer lens than some of the others here means that I am changing the direction of the topic?  Or were you referring to my reply to Kmatthew regarding the boat?  If so, it maybe your style to point fingers only without evidence but it is in my interest to clarify my position.  If you feel that by replying to someone’s post is incorrect than I am in the wrong.
@Geoff, my apologizes for changing the direction of your thread.

2.        “The loon was not afraid of the hundreds of boats in the harbour because those boats were not chasing after it.”
Cannot agree with you more on this point, however, Kmatthew also confirmed that my boat was not the one he was referring to.  But that is of course if he is not a liar and a source of information which Justice Ming deems reliable.

3.        “… he decided to become one of those “disturber in the subsequent hours of the day and on the following days”
Interesting conspiracy theory but when I was on the beach, as suggested by Guy Miller, a local resident who has been observing the loon since last Monday requested, we stayed well away from the “landing zone” of the loon and in fact, I was assisting Guy Miller to clear the area in order to leave room for the bird to land if it so wished earlier that day (19th March 2016).
As for “…on the following days”, I think you might wish to check with your “reliable sources” because you may find that I was in Long Valley on the Sunday and not on Lamma Island.

4.        “why his information is the only reliable source?”
I do not believe that my information is the only reliable source, I believe that the neutrals, someone not labelled as a “photographer” nor one associated with “Hong Kong Wildlife” otherwise known as “Bad Milk” to most maybe also be considered reliable.  You may well find that the two accounts may well match, this would normally indicate that this was in fact the truth.

“BTW, it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone who did something wrong but deny it by telling lies to other people not in the scene.”
It is also difficult to have a meaningful discussion about feather lost to a loon when all you seem to be interested is to point fingers and make false accusations.

As for your level of English, I am not an English teacher and hence do not consider myself an expert on the topic therefore will not comment.

[ Last edited by wilsondring at 22/03/2016 20:59 ]

tsheunglai

Dear all

I write to share some of my past experience with the same species but at Sai Kung, a bird found by Mr John Edge. The bird was in water but for some time landed to roost. Waterbirds land to roost, this is natural enough, not just to rest an injured body.

Birds like other vertebrates (animals with backbones) have brains enough to kep distance from possible danger. Different birds keep different distances they think safe. What matters for decent humans(有人格) who can apply 'What they don't like won't apply the same upon others (己所不欲, 勿施於人即其牠生物)' here should take care that they stop going near the loon when it starts to lurch away. That's simple and easy enough to observe.

Besides, the bird will linger longer on the same spot for more people to see. Wild animals are not toys or domestic animals. Don't touch, capture or tempt to bait them for photographic effects which is pure selfishness (失格) which make us people hateful.

S L Tai

[ Last edited by tsheunglai at 22/03/2016 21:23 ]

wcaptain

Hi Wilson,

THX for sharing with your thoughts. I pretty sure the loon (more than a model in a photo) appreciates you very much if its well being is the priority during photo taking. The principle of "bird first" should be a common sense to all birders and photographers.

Good birding

Captain

[ Last edited by wcaptain at 23/03/2016 10:12 ]

HKBWS Vicky

由於大部份回覆都已離題，因此管理員將此帖上鎖。
Since most of the replies are travelling out of scope. Therefore, forum administrators decided to lock this post.