cthomas

9-11-2008 11:00am
Mai Po 米埔
一位攝鳥者竟然胡亂闖進20,21塘內的泥路, 並在21,22塘間用迷彩帳隱閉起來,
但白色長鏡頭露了出來,並向着太陽方向,
他不時也走出來,並在泥路上走來走去,好像在找鳥兒...
可是照片已損壞.
他一直擾攘到12:00左右才離開...

[ Last edited by cthomas at 16/11/2008 19:58 ]

hiddenplace

我未去過MP所以不知那裡的規則, 請問20,21塘內的泥路是不能進入的嗎? 請指教

cjacky

希望冇下次同唔好有人有樣學樣啦 . . . . . . .  
(唔會係扮無知呱...)

深藍-Owen

圖中位人兄我應該在 PT 也見過. 我相信佢只係因為唔知規矩所以誤闖, 希望認識佢既朋友代為通知. 話聲比佢聽. 米埔有好多地方係唔可以行入去. 因為怕影響雀仔. 通常我地只會行外圍個圈. 同一 d 有石屎舖既路. 麻煩晒~!

cjacky

Quote:

Original posted by hiddenplace at 13/11/2008 23:20
我未去過MP所以不知那裡的規則, 請問20,21塘內的泥路是不能進入的嗎? 請指教

留意吓. 會有牌仔寫住架 .  好多時有d路係唔比入架.怕會過份騷擾d 候鳥.

Beetle

Quote:

Original posted by cjacky at 13/11/2008 23:28


留意吓. 會有牌仔寫住架 .  好多時有d路係唔比入架.怕會過份騷擾d 候鳥.

會唔會有路係冇牌仔但唔俾入架?

深藍-Owen

好多時因為 d 草長得滯, 會遮左 d 牌..

深藍-Owen

Quote:

Original posted by Beetle at 13/11/2008 23:30

會唔會有路係冇牌仔但唔俾入架?

簡單 d . 外圍一圈條路同石屎路就可以行. 唔係石屎路就唔好行. 其實諗諗都知. 隔離有 hide 望住你行緊果位. 就唔好行入去.

fkm

I do not wish to comment on the issue directly but being a new-comer myself about a year ago, I would like to share my experience at that time.

Basically, you apply for a HKBWS membership and pay the fees, then you are entitled to get a permit to the reserve. I still remember the first time I went to Mai Po, I had absolutely no idea of anything!!! Not to mention I didn't know where the birds were, I didn't know the way, I didn't know where the hides were, I didn't know if I should leave the door open or closed after entering the hides, I didn't know if I could stick the lens out of the window...the only thing I knew was that there were areas I was not supposed to enter (only because of the post or notice saying so).

I somehow think the veteran members here and the management of the reserve take everything for granted...I hope some clear guidelines could be issued to new comers. Don't blame someone "violating" your rules unless you made it known clearly.

(Well, in all my visits to MP, I have never seen anything like this, so I suppose he is a new-comer. If the guy is deliberately entering a restricted area, that is another issue.)

hiddenplace

Totally agree "Don't blame someone "violating" your rules unless you made it known clearly."

深藍-Owen

not the rules by "us", the rules by WWF..

HFCheung

I understand the issue very well.  This has come up many times in the past.

It is mentioned on the post by fkm that a new member holding a fresh Mai Po Permit can cause a lot of troubles in Mai Po because they do not have any experiences on the rules/conduct.  This is a big concern to me.  AFCD and WWF can use this argument to stop issueing permit to our new members.  I really want to ask members whether it is really necessary for new members to demonstrate the knowledge/experience of the rules/conduct before they can get a Mai Po Permit.  New members can tell me more on this.  When I was a new member, I never have this problem because my first few visits are with HKBWS outing.

Next year, I propose that HKBWS to hold free Mai Po trips to new members.  Would members support putting in resources this way to serve/educate new members.  We have about 300 new members every year.  If all new members take this service, we need to organize 6 to 7 Mai Po outings for them.

HF Cheung

hiddenplace

Where can find the MP rules/conduct? It is available as a document for download? Is it provided when the new permit issued?

Quote:

Next year, I propose that HKBWS to hold free Mai Po trips to new members.  Would members support putting in resources this way to serve/educate new members.  We have about 300 new members every year.  If all new members take this service, we need to organize 6 to 7 Mai Po outings for them.

Agree, this is a very good idea.

[ Last edited by hiddenplace at 14/11/2008 13:18 ]

cjacky

最基本既. 見到有個牌寫住 " Please do not enter". 就唔好入. 瓜田理下.  真係睇唔到既. 下次唔好咪得law.

差唔多既故事, 我都聽過不少.  

好同意輝可哥既說話.

mteresa

I agree what Fai gor said. I believe this could benefit new members.
As a member of HKBWS, I do not oppose putting resources in this area.

sdavid

Surely this is common sense?  Do people really have to be taught/shown that a sign reading "Do not enter" means you do not enter?

ajohn

I agree that some of this is common sense - do not enter where there is notice or where you are likely to disturb the birds. But of course, there are some aspects of behaviour which may be less clear-cut, especially regarding hide etiquette - as fkm mentions, it is not necessarily clear when people are expected to close doors/windows, and some people may not think about the importance of being quiet or keeping inside the hide (including lenses and telescopes!)

I think that some details about how to use the reserve are in the booklet given to visitors by WWF. New visitors should, of course, go into the WWF visitor centre at the MP car park when they arrive to ask advice if they are unsure. There are also details on recent sightings on the notice board in the car park and posted on this forum - the gei wai are numbered to help visitors know where to look for birds. This should help those unfamiliar with the reserve to find the birds they are interested in seeing.

Having said that, it is probably a good idea to have organised visits to the reserve so that members who are unfamiliar with the reserve know where to look for birds and get some sort of basis in identifying common species. It may be worth talking to WWF about this - they carry out organised visits which are an important source of income for the reserve, and HKBWS should not organise visits which would interfere with this source of income.

I strongly disagree with the idea that new member should not be allowed to get a permit until they are somehow 'qualified' to go onto the reserve. I joined HKBWS as an experienced birder with experience overseas at reserves similar to Mai Po - being told I was not allowed onto the reserve would have been insulting and may have discouraged me from joining HKBWS. Education about how to avoid disturbance and offering help to new members whenever possible is the best way forward. Do HKBWS send out advice on this when new members first apply for the permit?

Of course, it all comes naturally with experience. I get frustrated seeing visitors who are disturbing birds in some way. I apologise if this sometimes shows as rudeness to new members. On the other hand, I do try to point out unusual birds if there is someone else who is clearly interested but inexperienced. And of course, anyone new to birding can always ask for advice from someone experienced - I think most people are more than willing to help others to learn.

isaac_chan

Before I joined HKBWS and got a permit since 2004, I joined few Mai Po trips organized by private tours and WWF.

May be new members can join those WWF trips to familiar themselves about Mai Po.

schungyau

Obeying rules and regulations are common sense. But nowadays many people believe they are born free and have unlimited human rights, especially they are trying to do things to enrich their credits or self-satisfaction. Even the organization can set printed rules or briefing tours to new members, you can't avoid every persons to behave in a "proper" way as we understand and agree.

cthomas

Thanks for all reply!

I had seen many times some people went into pools area in the past few years.
But they suddenly discovered that they went to the wrong road, then they went back.

For this case, he equiped well. He brought chair and hidden cloth, walked inside pool,
and waiting for hours.
His behaviour was not like the case that I have seen before.

In recently, after I obsreved for long time,
I think there are some people entry Mai Po Marshes with no permit!!
On that day, Mai Po Officers told me they had caught 3 person with no permit.
I thanks for the hard working of Mai Po Officers!

Such no permit persons are not obey the law! The regulations is no used for them!
They never care the common sense!
I bothered the case may occurred frequently in the future.
We should take care of no permit person.
Such that I decided to make this post.

多謝各位回覆及注視。
我已見過不少人仕誤闖這些泥路,但他們很快返回去,因為鳥兒已飛起了。
但這次是不一樣。他是有計劃進入此地,因為他帶齊設備:椅子,迷彩帳幕...

我注視了很久,最近有不少無證人仕非法進入米埔保護區,這是我們值得關注的。
在當天米埔的漁護署職員告訴我他們已查獲了三位非法進入保護區人仕。
在此,感謝他們的努力!

我担心這些無證人仕無視法例!更何況什麽規條!更不用談常識了!
因此,我決定張貼出來,希望大家關注。

fkm

Let me state clearly I have absolutely no idea who the guy is but from his behavior (sticking a white lens outside his mobile hide, shooting against the Sun), I believe he is a newbie. Fully equipped does not mean one is a veteran, do a little search and read one or 2 articles on the Internet and you know what you have to get, you can even purchase everything online!

Concerning the "common sense" issue, I would not jump into the conclusion right away that the guy deliberately entered an area he knew was restricted. As Owen pointed out, those "no entry" signs could be covered by tall grasses, I myself have even seen barrier totally broken! (So the area was suitable for entry at that moment?)

I don't know, but do you guys think throwing stones at an "offender" in a forum is better than offering him a little education on the spot? Well, if my assumption is wrong and the guy was indeed breaking the rules at will, it is a different issue.

One more thing for you to laugh at...I went through the HKBWS and AFCD to get an entry permit to the reserve, it took several months for me to figure out the WWF was the actual host there?! Someone should be blamed?

[ Last edited by fkm at 15/11/2008 00:02 ]

yvicky

fkm,
其實要經過香港觀鳥會和漁護署才可取得米埔許可証是可以解釋的
入會成為香港觀鳥會會員才可以申請米埔証, 並不是因為米埔是由鳥會管理(米埔是WWF管理的), 亦不是鳥會和WWF有任何關係, 而是要証明申請人進入米埔的目的是觀鳥, 當然, 如果申請人有其他方法証明進入米埔是觀鳥目的亦可以申請, 但要重申一次, 發出米埔証的決定權在漁護署

其實在google 輸入"米埔", 第一個便是WWF 的網頁, 米埔是在80年代由政府交給WWF管理的, 在網上亦不難找到有關資料, 其實不論鳥友或攝影師, 知多一點關於米埔的過去、歷史, 對自已都有好處

njimmy

I would like to echo on fkm's previous comment on "Basically, you apply for a HKBWS membership and pay the fees, then you are entitled to get a permit to the reserve."

that receiving a MP marsh entry permit is a actually "privilege", not an "entitlement of being a HKBWS member".

cthomas

Quote:

Original posted by fkm at 15/11/2008 00:00
Let me state clearly I have absolutely no idea who the guy is but from his behavior (sticking a white lens outside his mobile hide, shooting against the Sun), I believe he is a newbie. Fully equipped  ...

Dear fkm,

  You are a very good learner.
  I need to clearfy the objective of this post:
  We should take care with behaviour of visitor in Mai Po Marshes.
  
  If I walked in "the wrong road" in a new field (I am a new one in that field),  
  you can blame me. I will accept.
  I apologise for that. I never do that again.
  I am very please for you. You make me growth in that field.
  It is a good learning process for me.

  If you have any advice and complaint, WWF, HKBWS, AFCD have channels for you.
  Your descriptions are not related to the post, please make another topic for us to discuss.

  你是一位相當好學的人, 這是值得稱讚的。
  此網頁的目的是希望大家關心一些參觀者的行為。

  有人"走錯路",受到別人的責難,這是正常的事情,
  該人懂得回頭知返,他是值得我們的學習與稱讚的對象!

  你的意見可以向WWF, HKBWS, AFCD說明。
  你也可以開新的題目,好等大家討論。

Thanks!
Thomas.

[ Last edited by Web Woodpecker at 15/11/2008 22:46 ]

eling

Quote:

Original posted by fkm at 13/11/2008 23:56
I still remember the first time I went to Mai Po, I had absolutely no idea of anything!!! Not to mention I didn't know where the birds were, I didn't know the way, I didn't know where the hides were, I didn't know if I should leave the door open or closed after entering the hides

frankly i'm very sick of people pretending to be ignorance of everything.  pls open your eyes wide and use your brain to have a second thought before just being argumentative, i believe that would make the whole world better.

[ Last edited by Web Woodpecker at 25/11/2008 04:55 ]

fkm

Quote:

Original posted by cthomas at 15/11/2008 22:21

Dear fkm,

  I need to clearfy the objective of this post:
  We should take care with behaviour of visitor in Mai Po Ma ...

Dear Thomas,

I do agree with you that we must behave properly when visiting MP, I just view the other part of the story a bit differently.

Of course you are free to decide what you would like to do but if I were there, I would not hesitate to talk to the guy directly, right away. If he responded positively, case resolved and it might even have saved the guy a few hours of birdless Sun! If the guy ignored and deliberately stay in the restricted area, I would not hesitate to pick up my mobile and call the authority up (WWF office, I suppose) too. In the former case, a post would serve well to remind all of us to be more alert while navigating in MP.

MP is too vast an area for any new visitor so I guess we should have some mercy on someone inexperienced. Just my 2 cents, that's all.

Happy birding,
fkm

ttakyan

致張主席及各會員,
看到這篇文章十分驚訝,因相中就是本人.事情當日本人沿禁區南下至尾塘,可能因工程關係而變了干塘,而旁邊有泥路可暢通無阻直入有水的地方,環顧四周沒有雀鳥,本人嘗試在干塘旁樹下隱藏等待雀鳥出現,因那天吹著強風度致鏡頭外露,本人也努力遮蓋起來,本人曾移動等侯地方兩次,除麻鷹外沒有看見其他雀鳥,不久便離開.
如上述失當行為不當度致不安,我向張主席及關注事件會員說聲對不起及萬二分歉意,承諾不會重犯,也願意負上法律責任或取消會員資格.

[ Last edited by ttakyan at 16/11/2008 22:41 ]

HFCheung

觀鳥會鼓勵大家共同合作，搞好米埔及所有觀鳥地點的使用，若有人不明白我們的觀鳥行為守則，例如誤闖不應進入的地方，望大家善意提醒，明白了就希望能認同並一同遵守。

個人不認同任何惡意人身攻擊，亦不認為今次是有人惡意人身攻擊，不要太敏感太激動。觀鳥會不可能限制各位會員/嘉賓灰色言論，我明白一些發言已可能引起部份人仕不安，我呼籲大家用字謹慎，避免不必要的誤會，避免不必要地激起大家的情緒。

多謝大家有建設性的發言。

張浩輝

深藍-Owen

或許我補充一些. 以我所知. 陳生一行有兩人. 觀察一輪之後見閣下未有離開之意. 所以由一人看管攝影器材. 另一人跑出 AFCD Waden house 報告. (他們沒有 Waden House 電話) 你可以想像一來一回要多小時間嘛? 回來時. 閣下剛從另一邊離去了. 亦由於這個報告. AFCD 方面職員檢查沿途見到的拍攝者. 因而逮住了三個無證闖入米埔的攝影人.

另. 香港的版權法. 在公眾地方拍攝得的照片. 版權歸攝影者. 而非被攝者所有, 攝影者有權把照片用於任何地方. 包括商業用途.

謝回覆和敢於承認. 希望以後閣下進入米埔時. 不要再誤入禁區了. 因為香港不存在"不知者不罪"這條法例.

在此順便公開 AFCD Waden House 電話. 有需要可以打給他們求助 : 24714411.

cbryan

I think it's pointless to judge the act of a single person here.  The 'offender's' point is well taken and those of others equally noted.  But I think it's worth responding to Fai gor's suggestions.  Maybe our attention should be turned to how to prevent this from happening again, or what role HKBWS should take in this aspect.

As a member of HKBWS, I do not agree that our resources should be put into guided tours of Maipo for beginners, which as others have suggested would be redundant with that of WWF.  The rules and etiquette of Mai Po could be efficiently posted onto this website, or at most (though I don't think we should waste paper) be put into pamphlets to be distributed to new members.  Just like the code for bird photography posted here.  Both WWF and HKBWS are non-profit making organisations with limited resources that we cannot afford entertaining each and every new member, making sure they bahave well, but rather to have our resources put into more productive activities.

Before replying this thread I've tried to see things from a newbie's perspective.  Is there anything that the HKBWS should have done but haven't that we as an organisation should be blamed for the 'improper' act of individuals?  Are the members appears to be unfriendly to newcomers making them afraid of asking questions that many would have regarded as stupid?

As others have already pointed out, WWF, but not HKBWS, is the management of MP.  The permit is a sort of agreement between WWF and the permittee.  HKBWS is only the means to get one.  Those applying for a permit, should at least spend a little bit of time understanding who's granting you that permit, as well as the terms and conditions of that permit, which means not only what you're entitled to, but also what you're obliged to.  Let me use an example:  Most people driving a car have never even looked at the whole legislation on traffic rules.  But when you've broken a traffic law which you're ignorant of, would you put the blame on someone else or your driving school?  You don't get someone briefing you each and every clause of the traffic rules, nor is there any pamphlet that comes along with your new licence.  But by conduct, by driving without even looking all over the tedious rules, you take up the responsibility, and thus the blame.  I think it's not a very different case here.

Obviously nobody would ever study the local traffic laws before they drive.  We would ask friends or learn seeing what others do instead.  Is the HKBWS so impenetrable that makes newbies afraid to ask questions in order to learn from fellow members?  I don't think the members and the people in this forum are not friendly or helpful.  I even find most of us here way more friendly than what I've expected them to be when I was new to HKBWS.  And we're so blessed that we can ask questions here on the internet and there're plenty of people desparate to help.  The only question is that we don't bother to ask, or that we're too afraid of asking questions.

I think posting the rules and suggested etiquette on this forum is helpful and that should be what HKBWS should reasonably do at most, out of good faith, but not as an obligation.  The other suggestion I have is to add a personal message link that will direct questions to HKBWS officer, so that there's a channel for 'stupid' questions (no question is stupid anyway) to be taken care of.

Pardon me for such boring stuff.  I just hope to contribute directing this discussion to a meaningful conclusion.

bryan

cthomas

Quote:

Original posted by ttakyan at 16/11/2008 12:47
致張主席及各會員,
看到這篇文章十分驚訝,因相中就是本人.事情當日本人沿禁區南下至尾塘,可能因工程關係而變了干塘,而旁邊有泥路可暢通無阻直入有水的地方,圍顧四周沒看雀鳥,本人嘗試在干塘旁樹下隱藏等待雀鳥出現, ...

本人首先向尊敬的ttakyan道歉,並删除有関的照片。

Dear ttakyan,

  鳥會不會開除你的會席, 相信會長及各會員不反對吧!
  你已清礎交待事件始末, 我的疑慮也太過份了。
  相信各位已經諒解你了。
  要自責的是我,我為大家帶來不少麻煩。

  其實當時也想走進去將你拉出來,但担心其他人看見也會投訟我,所以我們决定到辦事處投訴
  幸好他們沒有找到你。

  你可以稱呼我Thomas, 請不要稱呼我陳先生。
  其實我是一個很小的人物,只是喜歡攝鳥。
  出於對米埔的關心, 我只是針對此事,從沒有針對過你,
  因為我對人的印象很差,在那裹曾經見過你,我真的沒印象,談不上有什麽不滿。
  其實我也有跟你一樣的設備,以前在尖鼻咀經常使用,但米埔從來沒有用過,
  因為我觀察過米埔的環境,這是不適用的。

  在此再次向你道歉,因為使用了你的肖像。

通過這次的討論,我知道最好找一個机會跟當事人說過明白。

Dear fkm,

  多謝你建議!
  你的見解是不錯的,我還有很多東西要跟你學習的!
  我們在這裹討論問題要到題及冷靜,
  不像其他地方的討論,好像是吵架。
  問題會最終得到解決。

  Meet you somewhere out there.
Thanks!
Thomas.

多謝位支持!!
討論在此結束。
Discuss in the End.  

WWF Mai Po

Dear Society Members,

Next month WWF will issue a ‘Terms of Entry’ for the Mai Po Nature Reserve to address the above issues. The bilingual terms and map will be posted at the Mai Po Car Park and on this BBS forum.

At the November HKBWS executive committee meeting, it was agreed a copy would be given to all new members of the Society. WWF will also provide a copy to all persons renewing their AFCD/FCA permits through our office.

Thank you,

Bena Smith
Reserve Manager
3193-7511 (bsmith@wwf.org.hk)