twaiyi

分割自twaiyi 發表的 Split from twaiyi's 《Red-backed Shrike 紅背伯勞》

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 8/10/2008 17:44
Well done!  I am glad that somebody have the chance of checking it themselves.

This incidence remind me of the same old question of keeping the site of important birds secret.  I am not insisting how this should be done one way or the other.  I am saying that we should have a uniform scale for ourselves and others.  If we want to keep this secret, then I think we better not blame others not to reveal their own secret sites.

HF Cheung

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 8/10/2008 17:44
If we want to keep this secret, then I think we better not blame others not to reveal their own secret sites.

我想我要說一說這一件事，就是一位自稱是香港觀鳥會委員、姓戴的一位先生，昨晚至今天打電話數次來叫我公開此鳥地點。原本也沒有什麼的，但是姓戴的先生今天的說話，實在令我感到非常的反感。竟然說我在此問鳥ID，就有義務必定要告知鳥地點。問我對鳥會沒信心又參加，還說當了鳥會圖書館義工是否有什麼企圖。然後還說我堅決不公開鳥的地點就是違反鳥會宗旨，會在下次開會的時候提出不准我續會。
我真的無法相信鳥會委員會當中會有這種使用這手法來令人說出鳥點的人。
今天我要上課，所以不方便繼續吵下去，便叫他打電話問其他人，最後這位戴先生也有去觀看此鳥。但這並不代表我真的認同這位戴先生，甚至他令我對HKBWS反感、失去信心。
我希望這位戴先生會改善一下他的言詞。

[ Last edited by BWA at 12/10/2008 17:38 ]

深藍-Owen

雀仔有否聽錯? 你可以看看鳥會的 bulletin. 第一頁的所有委員會委員名單. 沒有一個是姓戴的. 甚至沒一個是 T 字頭的. 希望這個姓戴的人士莫名其妙言論. 不會令鳥會已經越來越少的義工數目雪上加霜.

twaiyi

Quote:

Original posted by 深藍-Owen at 8/10/2008 20:32
雀仔有否聽錯? 你可以看看鳥會的 bulletin. 第一頁的所有委員會委員名單. 沒有一個是姓戴的. 甚至沒一個是 T 字頭的. 希望這個姓戴的人士莫名其妙言論. 不會令鳥會已經越來越少的義工數目雪上加霜. ...

沒有聽錯，昨晚他打來說是鳥會委員會的人，問鳥的地點，我的電話是余日東先生給他，所以說他是可以相信。
戴先生叫我放心告訴鳥地點給他，因鳥會委員會不是那一些會為拍鳥而影響鳥的人，他是沒有相機，也沒有任何鳥攝者電話的人，不用擔心出現數十鳥攝者的情況。還有他表示曾在上屆大會說過鳥攝不當的行為，叫我可以查一下最近鳥會寄來會議記錄，叫我放心公開鳥地點。
至於他是不是委員會的人，我昨晚沒有去查證，因為我相信真的只有高層、委員會等才能獲知我的電話號碼。今天才知道，我被騙了！叫我信心大減！

nlinyau

o甘即係呢位戴先生唔係鳥會委員?

lchunfai

是他說余日東先生給他你的電話還是????, 另外請問你有否問清余日東先生?????

[ Last edited by lchunfai at 8/10/2008 21:20 ]

hpippen

其實今日現場其中幾位已經當面說清楚事情,大家亦明白問題所在,
很多謝雀仔TO講出地點及事情經過,希望大家和氣收場!

HFCheung

I need to apologise for HKBWS if these things really happen.  I need some time to find out myself.  We do have a volunteer name Mr. Tai helping to carry out some duties for HKBWS, but no Executive Committee member called Mr. Tai.  If there is any possible confusion, call the office or to me direcly (6131-8520) to confirm.

I think the decision whether to withhold information of special birds is in the hands of the discoverer.  I will be happy if proper records (such as good photographs) have been collected, and information submitted to HKBWS at a non-sensitive time.  To me, I have not seen the bird yet, and will not force anyone to tell me the information.  I hope members can do the same as well.  If we cannot respect all observers, all of us will be losers at the end.

HF Cheung

HFCheung

I can foresee a very high number of birdwatchers and photographers wishing to see the birds, and that might cause unacceptably high level of disturbance to the bird.  We always say the welfare of the bird goes first.  We need to demonstrate in action what we really mean.  The worry that tens of observers would crowd around the bird for the whole day has already be expressed.  To avoid this, I have the following suggestions to HKBWS members.

1. Reduce the disturbance as much as possible
2. Limit the time that you observe the bird, say to 1-2 hours  
3. Don't release information to people that cannot be trusted
4. Report clear violation of the bird protection law

HF Cheung

[ Last edited by HFCheung at 9/10/2008 13:51 ]

cgeoff

If this person has been bullying the finder of the bird in the way described, then it is time to consider what needs to be done to prevent this in the future. There is no excuse for the kind of behaviour described, and the person responsible should be spoken to by a senior member of the HKBWS and warned about future behaviour.

Geoff

Beetle

Quote:

Original posted by HFCheung at 9/10/2008 09:32
2. Limit the time that you observe the bird, say to 1-2 hours.  

I agree very much with Fai Gor for this point. The suggestion is especially for photographers, I don't think we need superb close-ups.

gary

Quote:

Original posted by cgeoff at 9/10/2008 09:45
If this person has been bullying the finder of the bird in the way described, then it is time to consider what needs to be done to prevent this in the future. There is no excuse for the kind of behavi ...

Speaking as a HKBWS member, the pseudo-executive committee’s enthusiasm on digging out bird location and making it publicized for HKBWS member is much appreciable.  However it is difficult to agree his manner on chasing and bullying the bird finder to divulge the information –which reminds me of mafia! It is bird watcher’s own right to share or conceal bird information  we should respect  though we may act differently.  Speaking frankly, I think most of the experienced bird watcher should had been asked for not telling others bird locations in some occasions.  
The problem of this case is the pseudo-exco was speaking and acting like he was representing HKBWS according to twaiyi. And more seriously, as I can remember, this is not the first time I hear a bird finder annoyed by someone from HKBWS to request him divulging the bird information.
I think the responsible HKBWS chairman has already done something to clarify the case and we hope it will not happen again.
However, being a keen bird watcher, I would not mind to be annoyed, bullied or harassed if I could have such chance.

tsheunglai

Dear all

It is time to speak out so that Ms Twaiyi's revelation will not remain one-sided. As the telephone conversations were private, it was improper to discuss or reveal here in detail. However, some words from Ms Twaiyi I find untrue and serious enough to warrant a proper reply.

First of all, I never when I talked to Ms Twaiyi that I was a member of the executive council of the Society.

Secondly, I never challenged her present membership and her future as a member in the Society.

I persuaded and occasionally reasoned (in retrospect unwise) perhaps to the disgust and certainly having created understanding on the side of Ms Twaiyi. The outcome right now I regard totally regrettable. But the words I used are not coercive, nor the tone I delivered them suggesting high-handedness, least of all Mafia-like.

Good birding to you all.

Tai

tgraham

Whilst I agree with previous posts that it is totally up to the finder of any bird, be it rare or not, whether they share the location to other people personally I don’t understand why they would not want to.

The main reason I have heard are disturbance yet in the UK it is not unknown for 1000 people to turn up at a rare bird at the same time with no adverse effect. In HK if 30 people turned up at the same time that would be unusual. If somebody is deliberately disturbing the bird then there are plenty of forums to name and shame that person as has been done in the past.

From my experience the majority of birdwatchers in HK are very keen to share their finds with fellow birdwatchers even to the extent that special arrangements have been made to access private land the past

Personally if I was lucky enough to find a rare bird I would make every effort to ensure as many people saw and photographed it as possible however is it right that somebody who decided not reveal the location of a rare bird they found goes and see birds other people have found and shared with the birding community.

HK Twitcher

HFCheung

Often, discussions on the BBS quickly turning into unhappy situations because the wordings would often imply someone have done something although in fact they have not.  While I will not want any discussion to stop, I would like to see all of us to make an effort to avoid unnecessary misunderstanding.  I think there is a main issue that need to be reosolved.  That is:

How should we collect information of rare bird location from the finder?  What is the line?  And if the finder request us not to disclose the information to other HKBWS members or the public, should we refuse collecting these information?

There are also other questions as well.  For example, we still need to find out what exactly happened in this case.  Although the relevant parties have expressed their view, if there is any people that can contribute relevant information, please pass that to me or HKBWS office.  I would suggest not to post it on this BBS but that is up to you.

HF Cheung

bkenneth

I guess the bird is long gone now, but would the finder/anyone mind letting me know where it was found?

Thank you very much,

Ken

mchristine

Dear Dr Cheung,

I totally agree with your direction on how to handle the lingering discussion for the above.

Back to basic, all members should have expressed their agreement on the objectives of HKBWS before joining.  "It is to promote the study, appreciation and conservation of birds in Hong Kong.  In addition, the Society also facilitates the exchange of experience and information related to bird watching".  I personally much appreciate the 'knowledge sharing' spirit instilled by the Society.

As an ordinary member in the HKBWS, I would entrust our Chairman and Executive Committee to establish a proper guideline on reporting special bird finding which will 'facilitates the exchange of experience and information related to bird watching' as well as "promote the study, appreciation and conservation of birds in Hong Kong."

bkenneth

This is from the BBC website today (10 October).


A bird never before seen in Britain has turned up 2,000 miles from home near Land's End.

The Alder Flycatcher attracted 200 birdspotters - known as twitchers - to Nanjizal in West Cornwall on Thursday.

The small creature is normally to be found in the wetlands of northern South America, where it usually winters.

Expert ringers have been given a licence to catch the bird in a net for further study before quickly releasing it back into the wild.

The twitchers, alerted by text messages, travelled from all over Britain, including Yorkshire and Tyneside, to photograph the unique visitor.

One Alder Flycatcher has been seen before in Iceland but never in Britain.

The bird species measures from 13 to 17 cm (5-7 in); weighs 12 to 14g (0.42-0.49 ounces); and has a wingspan of 21-24 cm (8-9 in).

It feeds mainly on insects caught in the air or gleaned from the foliage of trees and shrubs.

ajohn

I would agree with Graham's opinion that anyone who goes to look for a bird that others have publicised should also be prepared to publicise the location of any rare bird they find. I have been lucky enough to find a few rare birds (although nothing as good as this shrike!) and have tried to ensure the information is available. I would expect anyone else to do the same and have been to see other's birds - this includes the shrike so I am, of course, very pleased that the location of this bird was revealed.

Many people will be interested in going to see a rare bird - as I said in my previous post, this should not cause excess disturbance to the bird if everybody behaves correctly. In this respect, anyone visiting a rare bird which has been publicised should behave correctly to ensure that disturbance is minimised (of course, I would expect anyone to behave correctly when observing any bird, rare or common). This way, people will not be concerned about revealing the location of birds in the future.

Anyone posting an ID question on the forum should also be prepared to allow others to see the bird. This was in fact relevant for this shrike, which seemed a straight-forward ID on the original photos but was debated by those who saw the bird in the field.

There may be circumstances when it is better for the bird that the location is not publicised. This could apply, for example, to sensitive breeding or roosting species or if the bird is on private land (although I would encourage anyone to seek permission from the landowner to permit visitors). If you are not prepared to reveal the location, it would be best to give a reason for this on the website.

On the other hand, no-one should be bullied into revealing the location of a bird. If you are interested in seeing a particular bird, ask the finder for a location, explain the reasons you would like to see the bird and explain that you will not cause disturbance. I suspect there was a simple misunderstanding in this case, but obivously I do not know the full details so I will not comment further.

These wild birds do not 'belong' to anyone and are usually on public land, and many people enjoy going to see rare birds - not revealing the location can lead to resentment against the finder. There have been several previous cases of 'suppression' in the UK which have caused considerable bitterness lasting many years. I hope this does not happen in Hong Kong!

tsheunglai

Dear all

I am glad the Red-backed Affair has attracted such good number of positive, constructive and healthy opinions and suggestions. While I will not dwell on literally what is written in the Society's consititution, my past twenty years of experience tells the same conclusion. Let me share with you all some true ancedotes.

When I was quite a novice in birdwatching and there existed no Hotline for the birding community in general, I one day hurried to Mai Po in the direction of the Scrape (Ponds 16/17). I met an English-speaking birder and enquired about the Oriental White Storks. Half surprisingly and half-mockingly his reply was, "The were all gone quite a number of days."

Another is the bird Brown-breasted Flycatcher which I have never seen. I learnt from the Annual Report (in those days the reports were sent to our hands punctually to the week. How are you and where are you now, my dear Verity (Pickens)?). It has been well seen like other rarities by a dozen of well-informed birdwatchers but no other outside their circle.

Take one more example. I was for one almost envious of what Hon Kong Twitcher had achieved of seeing 350 different birds in the wild in one year. There are a number of successful elements there, prominent among them is help from friendly fellow birders who did not mind telling him where the good birds could be found.

The story is quite contrary in my case. While I have been serving the local Chinese birding community by being the official informer as regard bird finds (being in charge of the Chinese Hotline), up to now since I succeeded H F Cheung, it could be for months hundreds of callers listening to the daily hotline bulletin without leaving a message about their finds).

We join the society naturally to share, for good and for bad, not to take without contribute, asking for ID while holding their information for various reasons which so far I've found quite unjustified and some I dare say bordering on selfishness. My fellow Chinese-speaking birders, you did love 'Casaer' (the Society) once, why don't you now mourn for him (contribute to the Chinese hotline for the benefit of all)?

Good birding to you all

'Hopeful' Tai

mchristine

Dear Mr Tai,

Could you please help enlighten me by advising in which HKBWS official channel did indicate that you are "serving the local Chinese birding community by being the official informer as regard bird finds (being in charge of the Chinese Hotline)".  Sorry that I just don't have a clue.  

I feel totally confused now.  If you are known to have such offical capacity then all unhappy events and lingering discussions should not have happened.

twaiyi

我說一下我不想公開地點的原因
1. 公開了地點，萬一出現了數十人，可能會跟街坊有衝突。
例如：有街坊說話比較大聲，因此嚇走了大家正在觀看和拍攝的鳥，而觀鳥者又埋怨而跟街坊吵起來，之後的我已經不敢想像。又或是街坊在晨操，覺得我們數十人很阻礙他們而吵起來。
2. 擔心有鳥友會弄壞街坊的物件
3. 擔心有不守規矩的鳥攝者，為求漂亮的照片而做出過份的行為

如果這一隻鳥是在TPK、MP、LV這一類一直是觀鳥點的地方，我倒是不介意公開地點。但這一次是在市區，是一個一直不會同時出現大量觀鳥者或鳥攝者的地方，這裡又有不少人在那活動，而且有很多是街坊的東西，公開這地點實在有顧慮。我希望鳥會能明白我。



另外，說一說戴先生的事，
我之前一直不認識你，你在鳥會有什麼地位我並不清楚，我實在沒有要刻意中傷你的理由。
事實上戴先生你那天中午是使用了威脅性的言語來叫我說出鳥點，在你說我不公開鳥點就在大會提出不讓我續會和不能當義工之後，我真的有決定下年不續會和不再於圖書館幫忙的想法。
其實我只是當了正式鳥會會員一個月，我實在沒想過「鳥會會員」和「鳥會義工」竟然成了迫會員說出鳥點的工具，這實在叫我無奈和後悔。
要是戴先生你說你當天沒有這麼說過，我也不會迫你認，但你自己問心真的沒說過這樣叫人生氣的說話嗎？

tsheunglai

Dear Mchristine

Forgive for addressing you as above.

It is up to the Society if it thinks it important enough to give the birding community the holder of the office its due publicity. For the English counterpart the holder is Richard whose voice I almost hear daily so that I can get a digest of what he learns about bird finds of the day (the tranlation often proves hard though I hold good qualification in tranlation, chiefly for bird names and places).

When I asked Ms Twaiyi for information, I did revealed who I was and asked her to refer me to Mr Ho our office manager for confirmation. I tried hard and repeatedly with Ms Twaiyi in this tone/way but sadly to no avail. While I am respectfully to and appreciate for what Richard has done all the years, the Chinese holder is regarded as it seems to me a far-inferior second.

Thank you for your care and concern to make an direct enquiry.

Happy Tai

BWA

關於有人追問紅背伯勞位置一事，
雙方都已經作了交代，
無論誰是誰非，
再糾纏下去也不會有結果，
請大家還是集中討論應該如何分享鳥踪和如何處理敏感地點吧！

I think enough has been said from either side about the incident concerning the Red-backed Shrike, and it is unlikely that the debate could be resolved at this Forum.
Let's focus further discussion on how to share bird news and how to handle sensitive locations.



[ Last edited by BWA at 10/10/2008 22:51 ]

tsheunglai

Dear  all

Perhaps my professional past lingers in my tone of speaking a heavy weight of authority which I probably cannot get rid of for the rest of my life. But anyone who hears and reads me carefully should probably detect in my words an expressive and explicit truth of being honest-speaking, though some might find them blunt and hurting.

For the moment I will try not to speak to stangers for information in the society.

This is my last reponse to anything said by Ms Twaiyi openly to bother anybody.

Misunderstanding is the name of the gulf at the moment.

Proud-speaking Tai

tmichael

My first and last word: in nearly forty years' birding (FYI I started on 7 November 1970 in Hartlepool, UK, when myself, my P6 teacher, and probably about 30 other 10 year old kids, found a Great Grey Shrike at an unusual suburban location, by strange coincidence) I cannot think of a bird that less needed any kind of 'protection' through any kind of secrecy than this bird: all it needed was for people to observe the only real rule that birders need to observe - don't flush the bird ie make the bird fly!!

Teach the all the masses of non-birder photographers that simple rule and you've solved the problem.

Real, happy, fun birding thrives on the sharing of information, and people's enthusiasm for seeing birds.

At least one old gwailo birder in HK never came to terms with that, as you can read in some very tedious sections in recent HKBWS bulletins.   

Mike Turnbull.

HKBWS Vicky

According to tsheunglai's reply #37,
Our office manager is Mr. Lo but not Mr. Ho. We do have a colleague named Mr. Ho who is our surveyor.

Beetle

I think all concerns are about whether the bird-watchers and/or bird-photographers all show self-discipline. I don’t think this is a problem for bird lovers like most members in HKBWS, or some other nature-lovers. Even the locals and construction workers nearby contributes more disturbance to the bird than bird-watchers! But I do worry if the information is being told to some non-birders photographers who may extensively disturb the bird.

About disturbing the local residents nearby, I don’t think it is likely to happen. I didn’t see such serious conflicts happening in Lai Chi Kok Park last year (although sometimes birders/photographers do block the paths in the park), as locals could understand what and why we are there, if we (as birders) explained our situation to them. To me it is wise to trust both birders and locals. It is happy to be friend and chat with local people there too. (I am not sure if people in Ho Man Tin are unkind, but birders must respect them first.)

I agree that the birdline is really a great contribution which facilitates all birders in Hong Kong. But it is up to the bird-finder to contribute to birdline because the information can spread really fast in such case. I don’t recommend the information to be put on birdline in case of such a rare bird, unless in save locations which provide lots of space for the bird.

Beetle Cheng Nok Ming

HFCheung

I have been watching this discussion while thinking what are the main points.  As I said before, I think there are two.

1. Review the present guideline and working procedure for collecting and releasing rare bird information
2. Investigate what happen in this case, because there is a serious accusation on a HKBWS volunteer

No.1 we can continue the discussion on BBS.  No.2 is involve collecting information and interviews, and is best done behind the scene.

On no.1, I have the following points to make.
1. I think there is general agreement that sharing of bird information in HKBWS is desireable and should be continued in some way.

2. There are still concern that a large crowd of birdwatchers (including photographers) can casue unwanted disturbance.  Say, it takes only a few people to cause the damage.  The public including some HKBWS members may not follow birdwatching guideline to the extend that we want.  We simply cannot control them.

3. At present, the main method of publicizing rare bird information are the English and Chinese birdlines, and the HKBWS bulletin board / discussion forum.  Both HKBWS members and non-members can access that.  Do members think that a more user-restricted system is the way to go?

4. In my opinion, respect to all other people is the most important.  It is very common in our society to have different opinion and judgement.  When a birdwatcher finds a rare bird, he/she can decide whether to release the information to anybody immediately.  The society can encourage information sharing, but should never enforce that.  Especially at present, we cannot solve the problem of controlling the disturbance after we publicize the information.

5. When the information is released to the society, say the birdline operator, then it should be understood that the information will be made public.  If the finder do not want this to happen, then a request should be made and some terms agreed.  If people getting the information cannot accept the terms, then they should not get that information.

So much for now.  I am sure we need more.  The AGM will come up in 10 days.  It will be another good chance to have some discussion, although I think we cannot solve this in a short time.

HF Cheung

lmunchong

A lot of us have expressed their point of view. This is good as open discussion do no harm at all. Don't hide, make it open!

I only have one point to stress.

The HKBWS should not accept any terms on who can and who cannot see the bird. All members are equal. (If I cannot disclose to other birders, don't let me know at all, just that simple)

Finally we still need the date and location of this series of picture. This is the rule of the forum, right! NO ONE is special.

tsheunglai

Dear all

Don't let fear be the rule of the day!

Let us recall from our birding history cases of seeing a rarity that caused distrubance or aroused public concern.

Let me recall my past participation of seeing a first bird of Hong Kong. As they were always some senior and respectable birders present who provided polite and proper guidance, discipline has been maintained to the satisfaction of all present. Up to now I don't see any need of new guidance and rules for birding in such cases. The Lai Chi Kok Park case which aroused outsiders' concern and complaint was quite different. Accessibility to information electronically is a double-edged tool.

Experience, especially on-the-spot experience is paramount in birding, especially the above cases. I hope the fun will not be spoiled by some arm-chair strategists who point their fingers to direct events at a distance, especially on accepting complaints by someone who base their cases on empty FEAR. Right now, wild birds are forced to live among human activities. Either they adapt or let us not bird at all. Ringing, I believe, is a torture to wild birds, but only to a tiny percent of them. Disturbance to nature is a HUMAN CRIME. Birding, from the point of view of wild birds, is one example. Let us all strike a fine balance.

Last of all, birders or non-birders, are free to be present in any public place. This is right of everyone who obeys the law of Hong Kong.

Tai

BWA

本地確有一些以照片為先的拍友，不論是出於無知或有意，
為求拍得「好」照片，會不擇手段去于擾雀鳥及破壞自然環境，
以下便是一些例子，在封閉的網上討論空間還有不少：
Out of ignorance or deliberation, there is still a small group of photographers who put photos before birds.
To get their "great" shots, they would go as far as disturbing the birds and destroying their natural habitat.
Below are some examples of such incidents, more can be found in restricted forums on the web.

Selfish guy frightened crested grebe 自私自利的人對住隻鳳頭鸊鷉狂閃閃閃

又一缺德行為攝影實錄! Report on Two Bad Bird Photographers

有關到燕鷗島拍攝照片的討論 Discussion on Taking Photos at Tern Islands

Survey Results at Sai Kung Tern Island 西貢燕鷗島調查結果

今日 Metro 講掉石嚇雀人


嚇雀人影鳳頭鷿鷈


如果你有興趣，在網上還可以找到一些主張不顧鳥類安危去拍照的言論。
For those interested, you may still find discussions on the web about "shooting" practices that disregard the welfare of birds.

有見及此，本會去年中亦發表了一些守則，希望提醒鳥友及拍友要留意，
不要于擾雀鳥和破壞自然：
In view of this, the Society published a set of code to remind birdwatchers and photographers to avoid disturbing birds and their habitats.
觀鳥及鳥類攝影守則 Code of Conduct for Birdwatching and Bird Photography

對無知或不負責任拍友的顧慮，並非閉門空想。
The concern about ignorant or irresponsible photographers is not unfounded.

[ Last edited by BWA at 11/10/2008 23:31 ]

lpaul

Firstly, can I suggest that this thread be split in two, one to dicuss the bird itself and another to discuss the issues surrounding it.

However, regarding the bird, yes it is a first-winter due to (for example) the pale fringed tertials, greater coverts and scapulars.

Regarding the right of others to see it, I think if you put pictures of a bird on the forum asking for others to spend their time and use their expertise to help identify it you should be prepared to share the information regarding its location with others.  If you do not want to share that information then don't post the photos.  It is pretty simple really, if I know there is a good bird out there somewhere, I would like to see it (especially if I helped to identify it!), if I can't see it (for whatever reason) I get upset.  If I don't even know it is there I do not get upset!

There are rarely birds that need to be kept quiet, but this was not one of those birds as it tolerated much disturbance from workers and members of the public when I was there.

However, I learnt a lot from this bird (even though I have seen many elsewhere, few have been in this plumage - and none in Hong Kong!); and like many others I enjoy seing birds I have not seen in HK before.  Birding should be fun, interesting and a learning expereince and sharing rare birds is certainly one way to contribute to it being so.

Arguing about seeing rare birds is not.

[ Last edited by lpaul at 11/10/2008 23:37 ]

tsheunglai

Dear all

I at last took time to have a look of what Paul has written. Paul, your observation is still that keen as former days I found you. But your biometrics do not help me at tall when I happen to bump into it or its kind again!

Back to the point. So far nobody has said whether it is definitely a juv (1st winter) or a female! Can I get an answer?

About field marks. I'm reading Plate 89 of Grimmet, etal's book 'Birds of Indian Sub-continent. Together with my own experience and knowledge, I judge the bird to be a juv/1st winter (by the way, which term is more appropriate this time of the year?). By its head (which is mottled), bill with a yellowish/ivory inner part, mottled wing coverts and back, and its scaled breast sides I wonder if I could venture saying it a juv/first winter.

From some particular angle (only) the bird was sharp square-tailed. But one easily seen feature is that it has a clear BROWN eyestripe that few other juv have. Its tail is the brightest in brown and its upper tail coverts are scaled. The bill shape and size defintely helps here (for a keen and experienced birder only). Furthermore, the tertials are thickly fringed in buff while the primary projection's length is hard to judge/compare.

Please let me suggest here that it is a juv/1st winter Red-backed Shrike for having a clear brown eyestripe, brown mottled head and bright brown mantle (from some angle and the right direction of light, mottled back and upper tail coverts and a bright brown squared tail, colour comparing to other upper parts.

Hopefully someone could correct, improve and/or simplify my suggested field features said above.

Tai

tsheunglai

Dear all

I at last took time to have a look of what Paul has written. Paul, your observation is still that keen as former days I found you. But your biometrics do not help me at tall when I happen to bump into it or its kind again!

Back to the point. So far nobody has said whether it is definitely a juv (1st winter) or a female! Can I get an answer?

About field marks. I'm reading Plate 89 of Grimmet, etal's book 'Birds of Indian Sub-continent. Together with my own experience and knowledge, I judge the bird to be a juv/1st winter (by the way, which term is more appropriate this time of the year?). By its head (which is mottled), bill with a yellowish/ivory inner part, mottled wing coverts and back, and its scaled breast sides I wonder if I could venture saying it a juv/first winter.

From some particular angle (only) the bird was sharp square-tailed. But one easily seen feature is that it has a clear BROWN eyestripe that few other juv have. Its tail is the brightest in brown and its upper tail coverts are scaled. The bill shape and size defintely helps here (for a keen and experienced birder only). Furthermore, the tertials are thickly fringed in buff while the primary projection's length is hard to judge/compare.

Please let me suggest here that it is a juv/1st winter Red-backed Shrike for having a clear brown eyestripe, brown mottled head and bright brown mantle (from some angle and the right direction of light, mottled back and upper tail coverts and a bright brown squared tail, colour comparing to other upper parts.

Hopefully someone could correct, improve and/or simplify my suggested field features said above.

Tai

lpaul

Firstly, can I suggest that this thread be split in two, one to dicuss the bird itself and another to discuss the issues surrounding it.

However, regarding the bird, yes it is a first-winter due to (for example) the pale fringed tertials, greater coverts and scapulars.

Regarding the right of others to see it, I think if you put pictures of a bird on the forum asking for others to spend their time and use their expertise to help identify it you should be prepared to share the information regarding its location with others.  If you do not want to share that information then don't post the photos.  It is pretty simple really, if I know there is a good bird out there somewhere, I would like to see it (especially if I helped to identify it!), if I can't see it (for whatever reason) I get upset.  If I don't even know it is there I do not get upset!

There are rarely birds that need to be kept quiet, but this was not one of those birds as it tolerated much disturbance from workers and members of the public when I was there.

However, I learnt a lot from this bird (even though I have seen many elsewhere, few have been in this plumage - and none in Hong Kong!); and like many others I enjoy seing birds I have not seen in HK before.  Birding should be fun, interesting and a learning expereince and sharing rare birds is certainly one way to contribute to it being so.

Arguing about seeing rare birds is not.

[ Last edited by lpaul at 11/10/2008 23:37 ]

chonki

Congras to TWAIYI.

The interest of the bird should always go first,
I enjoy knowing the bird is safe, rather than knowing where it is and how to identify it in the risk of disturbance to the bird.

Concerning the opinion that identification help should be under the condition of disclosing its location,
the logic behind is "funny", esp. when it comes to bird nest or, say, three-lined box turtle.

As long as it is the discoverer's will to protect the animal, I think we should all respect and ,more, appreciate.

Opinion from a Small Potato

wgeoff

We are getting confused between opinion and fact.

The fact is that we have a rule which states that anyone posting photographs on this website should declare the location (in detail if necessary) and the date of the photo. This rule does not appear to have been followed in this case, but everyone posting photos on this website should now be aware of the rule.

There may be a few occasions when the rule should not apply, these were covered by John Allcock and I can only quote his comment
'There may be circumstances when it is better for the bird that the location is not publicised. This could apply, for example, to sensitive breeding or roosting species or if the bird is on private land (although I would encourage anyone to seek permission from the landowner to permit visitors). If you are not prepared to reveal the location, it would be best to give a reason for this on the website.'
So, if you don't want to publish the details, declare the fact and the reason when you post the photos.

It then becomes a matter of opinion whether we should retain this rule. For me, we should, for two main reasons

1. birds are amazingly resilient. In their normal lives, they are probably challenged 100 times daily by other birds, let alone other animals and humans. They have the ability to fly away if they don't like it. Whilst we cannot guarantee the behaviour of everyone watching or photographing birds, it has rarely proved a problem elsewhere except under the circumstances described by John above.

2. this is a society for watching birds. A very important part of this is the free exchange of information. I for one would be reluctant to contribute to the website if I felt others were doing so on a different basis.

Finally, I think this submission and the previous one should appear under the heading 'should locations of rarities be publicised' and ask an official to change them over.

tbob

I am still puzzled as to how so many people saw this bird when its location was not revealed

tsheunglai

Dear Bob

Good question. Enquiries about its location start almost I believe as soon as photos appear on the website. I myself phoned a birder I know well. He was travelling so he gave me a phone number to contact the finder. I got a promise but it was broken.

As far as I know. The finder informed two of her friends she trusted. She borrowed some equipment and took some photos. She posted some asking help for ID. She told me the bird has been in the same location for two days.

Frustrated, I had a turn of forune. A telephone call telling me where I shouold go for the bird. When I arrived about a dozen birders/photographers I happen to know already there. One birder I know well probably found the location and bird on his own. He was smart enough to deduce from information he got from the website.

I followed Richard, the holder of the English Hotline's example and posted the message about the bird on the Chinese Hotline. I informed by phone a couple of other birders in the evening. I called at the English Hotline next evening. I followed its example and changed the message to make the location vague, just Ho Man Tin. But according to my telephone record, about eighteen callers have got the message, the exact location I mean. You know hot news travels fast, I think exponentially. In two days time, I estimate at least fifty birders and photographers available of time of the society, including a couple who carried cameras, complete strangers to me who talked to nobody had arrived before me, saw the bird.

That is what I know.

Tai

深藍-Owen

You are WRONG! Tai!

photo appear on internet starting Oct 6 and Tung asking me about the finder info on 7th, same night WaiYi, the poor little girl who just a student posting the photo on HKBWS website and start her nightmare!!

Bus Passenger Owen who obey the law of Hong Kong.

sammysam

It's incredible that so many experts (expecially, Mr. Tai who make a "Nightmare" call to her...) were discussing on an ethics issue that let me feel like attacking an non-adult student, "twaiyi". As, I know, she is small and new on birding (one year). It's an superb experience to meet the "HK first" for her. In these years, too many bad shooting examples that we saw on web. I don't think it's easy to make a decision to tell others or not for her..

wcaptain

應否公開稀有鳥類的位置？

若然觀鳥活動或生態攝影真的滋擾雀鳥，那麼我們便不單只不應公開稀有鳥類的位置，還應放棄任何觀鳥活動或生態攝影，從而保護稀有及不稀有的雀鳥。

還有，我們更不應出版年報，否則有心人便細心閱讀紀錄，從而觀察或「滋擾」雀鳥。早前有觀鳥者靠過去紀錄在飛鵝山找到的雕鴞便是一例。

這樣對嗎？我絕對不同意以上觀點。觀察/攝影不等如滋擾

大埔滘的雀鳥被觀察超過四十年，雀鳥的數目及種類不降反升。其他經常有觀鳥者到訪的地方也大多如是。可見一般觀鳥活動對雀鳥沒甚壞影響。

我同意Geoff Welsh /John 的觀點。多人一起觀察雀鳥並不是問題，重要的是守則。所以我們應把討論放在教育及推廣觀鳥守則上。只把討論放在公開稀有鳥類的位置顯得十分空洞，單是討論「稀有鳥類」的定義肯定花上不少時間。

另一方面，絕對同意不應公開鳥類繁殖點的位置。在這敏感時間，任何滋擾都是吃不消的。

隊長

HFCheung

I agree very well with Sammy that this discussions sound very negative to TWAIYI.  It sounds as if she have done somethings terrible wrong by refusing to reveal the exact location to Mr Tai.  I understand that the information has been revealed to somebody she trusted, and eventually the information was passed onto the English birdline operator and then opened to HKBWS members through the birdline, although only for a short time.  To me, she have done the society a great favour.  Through her, we now have a possible first for HK.  I praise her for what she have done to the society.

I agree with Sammy that there are at least several incidences that people think that disturbance has been excessive, and that is outside HKBWS control.  I think all of us understand that the key is whether all observers are following an acceptable rule, but in reality, there are often somebody willing to step into grey areas in the rule, and thus others find the act unacceptable.  The concern for too much disturbance is real.  I have a lot of respect fot those who are willing to share the information, but I also respect those who give some thought to the potential disturbance.  In practice, many forums would not force photographers to reveal the location.  When HKBWS force photographers to reveal the location, I guess the feeling would be: HKBWS does not take bird protection as serious as other forums.

In the end, the question is: when we open up the full information to members and the public, can HKBWS gaurantee that the bird will not be disturbed excessively?  If yes, then we can enforce the guideline that members need to reveal the information to all other members.  If no, we have no ground to ask our members to reveal information to all.

HF Cheung

twaiyi

如果香港的觀鳥者和鳥攝者都不是會做出過份行為，我相信我對公開鳥點有信心，但可惜，現在是有做出過份行為的人在，實在沒信心公開。
好在，紅背伯勞地點被公開後的日子，沒有對附近環境做成破壞，以我觀察也沒有做出過份行為的人。現在此鳥已經不見了好幾天，那個地方終於可以回復原來的樣貌。
人多的定義，我個人會看地點的大小，就說這次紅背伯勞的地點，不是很大，甚至我會覺得小，二十人同時存在，實在會覺得很擠迫，人看起來也特別顯眼。但相比起米埔，二十個人根本算不上什麼。

說這一次有多少人看到這鳥，我想大約有三十人左右，另外有些人則去了找不到鳥。
我在跟比較熟的鳥友說的時候(即6號晚)，是不清楚這是紅背伯勞，只是覺得比較像虎紋伯勞的紅尾伯勞，樣子奇怪。(有說過也許是雜交種)
正確來說，在這鳥被認為是紅背之前，共有6個人(不包括我)知道有此伯勞在何文田

下次再有HK First的話，個人覺得如果做法跟這次一樣是「死纏難打」，實在是有點令我感到可怕
個人認為應有渠道給發現者跟是確認鳥種的人聯絡，如果發現者認為公開地點不適合，應該尊重和遵守，不公開地點


另外，sammy，我是觀鳥約10年，鳥攝才是1年多

BWA

Quote:

Original posted by twaiyi at 13/10/2008 18:34
下次再有HK First的話，個人覺得如果做法跟這次一樣是「死纏難打」，實在是有點令我感到可怕

雀仔唔使怕，
主席惜（錫）哂你！



[ Last edited by BWA at 14/10/2008 00:51 ]

kpokuen

I agree with John and Captain.

kwan

wleepoin

Totally agree with Captain, John, Geoff Welsh!

"The Virtue of Birding, is sharing"

PWMK

cywong

I hope the HONG KONG BIRD WATCHING SOCIETY will not become the PREVENTION OF BIRDWATCHING SOCIETY!

wgeoff

I will make my final comment on this matter.

This is not an attack on Ms Twaiyi. In fact, it is a congratulatory note to her. By sharing the news of her great find with others, she has given a great deal of enjoyment to many members. This is the value of sharing in a society of like-minded people. Well done Ms Twaiyi, by sharing you have achieved a great deal and the bird was not affected.

On the subject of excessive disturbance. Of course we cannot guarantee the behaviour of all of our members. But what is ‘excessive disturbance’ for a bird? Does flushing a bird from its natural habitat, catching it in a net, manhandling it and sticking a ring on its leg constitute ‘excessive disturbance’? It would certainly come higher on my list than disturbing it when taking photographs of it. Am I advocating stopping bird ringing? No, because birds toleration of this activity is considered acceptable by all authorities.

Let us not get too hung up by disturbance, otherwise, as Captain says, we should never go bird watching at all. Birds are used to disturbance, its part of their daily lives and they have their own mechanism for dealing with it – they can fly away.

I am not advocating disturbing birds. But sometimes it happens, we all do it, and the bird knows how to react. The only circumstances where they cannot do this is in breeding, roosting and when tired immediately after long migration flights. In these situations they must be protected. But otherwise – trust the bird – they know how to look after themselves.

If we change our rules from a commitment to share information to one in which individuals can post photos but withhold information that others need to see the bird, I think this would be a retrograde step for the Society.

[ Last edited by wgeoff at 14/10/2008 09:09 ]

ltsunpun

非常同意 隊長，阿關，John, Geoff Welsh 和 Peter 的意見。大家應該分享觀鳥的樂趣。
現時BBS討論區任何人都可以Login，會員非會員都可以得到同一資訊。
可否考慮BBS討論區祇能讓觀鳥會的會員才可以進入觀看，我留意到絕大部份的會員在觀鳥時都很自律，不會對雀鳥造成很大的騷擾。如果這概念可行的話，對雀鳥的騷擾會減小很多。

Totally agree with Captain, Mr. Kwan, Geoff Welsh and Peter's opinion. We should share the fun from bridwatching.
Now BBS Forum is available to the public, HKBWS's member and non member could login and obtain the same information.
Please consider if BBS Forum is available to the HKBWS members only, I observe that most of our member is very self-discipline, disturbance to the bird is not so much. If this suggestion is followed, I expect that disturbance could be reduced to a minimum.

TP Luk