lmike

Tai Po
26 and 27 Dec., 2009









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Can anyone tell me that what are the differences between the first three one and the last one?  

Thanks!!   

tmichael

Actual differences are quite clear from the photos - the last one is Pale Blue Flycatcher, photographed outside of Hong Kong I assume.

Mike Turnbull

lmike

Really, OMG!

Actually, I am not the first one who found it on 26 Dec., 2009.  It was my friend who did it at the same place in Tai Po on 25 Dec., 2009.  And we had guessed whether it was an immature, an juvenile or a female Verditer Flycatcher.   

Thanks God and thanks Mike Turnbull!   

[ Last edited by lmike at 30/12/2009 07:49 ]

tmichael

But are you going to tell us where it is?

This is actually a requirement for all pictures posted on this forum, especially those seeking an identification or confirmation of identity.



Mike Turnbull

lmike

Sure. May be I re-post it on a new thread.
But I am not sure its name in Chinese..........

[ Last edited by lmike at 30/12/2009 07:59 ]

HKBWS Vicky

Mike T.,
Would you please further explain why it is a Pale Blue but not a Verditer?
I am in doubt. There are some black and white scaling in the vent which fits the characteristics of Verditer Flycatcher.
Thank you!
Vicky

tmichael

I'm not absolutely sure it is Pale Blue, but they do have a scaly vent according to several sources, so as a simple diagnostic that seemsto have been misrepresented by Viney et al in both text and illustration.

See:

http://orientalbirdimages.org/bi ... mily_ID=216&p=7

Actually it seems this species is very variable - I wonder if they all sound the same (resident and migratory forms) across its fairly wide range?

Could there be cryptic Pale Blue Flycatcher species?

Mike Turnbull

lmichael

This is difficult! I have done some more research and still have not reached a firm conclusion though still tend towards Verditer for the reasons discussed below:

First of all, I echo Mike T's suggestion that we may be looking at more than one species in the Pale Blue Flycatcher complex. The three taxa: nominate with an Indo-Himalayan distribution (which is the possible one in HK); diaoluoensis, endemic to Hainan and harterti in SE Asia, turn out to be very different. All the  descriptions I have read (Rassmussen, Robson, HBW) seem to ignore this (reasonably in Rassmussen's case as she has only one taxon to feal with). Based on very few photos (one in HBW and eight on OBI), I have some tentative suggestions about separating these (males), as follows:

harterti seems to be very distinct (and has to be a possible split), with not just a large bill, but a distinctly hooked upper mandible, buffy undertail coverts with no pale tips giving a barred appearance and (usually at least) very turquoise tones echoing Verditer.

diaoluensis seems to be intermediate in bill between harterti and nominate (large but no hook)and based on J&J Holmes photos on OB is a very even blue bird with no turquoise tones.

unicolor (nominate) even blue colour (as dialuoensis) but perhaps lighter, no turquoise, not particularly big billed. Note, though, that there is only one photo on OBI of this taxon. Unfortunately in this photo under tail coverts are completely hidden!

Now, compare the above (and the photos) with Robson's descriptions in Birds of South East Asia (2nd ed. 2002, I have the new one on order!). Here, he describes male nominate (which I agree with Mike T has a number of similarities with the HK bird - though note that he states that this has no turquoise in plumage) but only female harterti (which implies to me that he considers males are not that different): however, I suggest that the photographs tell a different story!

Thus, based on photographs, the HK bird does not match (admittedly, the only) nominate Pale Blue on OBI, but is very similar to a photo of Verditer from Sai Kung on 20 Dec 08 from P&M Wong. It is also quite similar to a 31 May 07 photo from Uttaranchal by Singh (though the latter has darker lores and a smaller bill).

The upshot of the foregoing is:

- I think all published text descriptions are too oversimplified to be of much use;
- I can't find a published photo of the likely taxon of Pale Blue which matches this bird as closely as published photos of the likely taxon of Verditer;
- but, I agree with Mike T that this bird does seem to be big billed and does not quite have the 'feel' of Verditer.

I join the appeal for detailed explanation of where this bird was seen - without further evidence I am not sure that this bird can be identified from a single photo - I would love it to be a Pale Blue and to start off 2010 with a 'Planet Earth Tick'!

Finally, and I confess somewhat mischievously, why is J&J Holmes's photo under Verditer on OBI from TPK in January 2002 not (as likely to be) a Pale Blue?

Happy New Year to all

Mike Leven

tmichael

While I've spent most of the day marking exam papers, tidying up my filing cabinet, and seeing Australia and much more importantly England through to Test match victories, MRL has clearly been very busy.

You've given us masses to follow up on, Mike! Thanks!

I still wonder if we might be permitted to know where this bird - present we are told on Friday and Saturday last week, at least - actually was, so that we might possibly see what it really looks like in the field.

Mike Turnbull

John Holmes

Hi Mike Leven, Mike Turnbull, and "L-mike",

Here are some shots of Pale Blue Flycatcher, taken by Jemi in Jianfengling, Hainan in November 2009.  








As you can see, the Hainan Pale Blue Flycatchers - "diaoluoensis" can show a hook on the bill.




Undertail coverts show some barring too, on Hainan birds.



Apart from that, I'll let the photos speak for themselves, and people can interpret them as they will.

With digital photos processed and viewed on various computer monitors, I'm sure colours are not always "true"

I guess behaviour is a factor in identification - Verditer really does perch prominently.  Pale Blue is usually well below the canopy !

As others have posted, it would be nice if "L-mike" would tell us the location of the mystery flycatcher.

Happy New Year to All !!!

[ Last edited by John Holmes at 31/12/2009 12:07 ]

kmike

Great Pix - and a case for a split - this story gets more and more interesting.

I have seen Pale Blue Flycatcher (male and female together) at Babao Shan and that one, which I guess is the most likely to turn up in HK, did have unbarred undertail coverts.

L-Mike This is a very interesting bird - even if we don't know what it is yet - please do let us know where you saw it!

Mike K

lmike

Sure, why not!
Please check your P.M.
No matter how the result will be, it is very exciting at the end of 2009!!
It gives me an impressive memory.
May I express my sincere thanks to all of you!
Happy New Year!

L-mike

(How come there are so many Mike in Bird Watching Society............ )

John Holmes

Here are some digiscoping shots of a Verditer Flycatcher taken in Tai Po Kau on Feb 7, 2002.

referred to by Mike Leven "mischievously" above - a photo of this bird was posted, as he  said, on OBI.

[ Last edited by John Holmes at 31/12/2009 16:25 ]

lmichael

No more comment for now, other than to thank John & Jemi for showing that the Hainan taxon may show an obviously hooked bill and L-Mike for the site details: I shall try to find the bird tomorrow morning though (being Scottish) I am obliged to see the  New Year in with a few drams so it won't be at dawn!

Happy New Year to all!

Mike Leven (and yes, I agree there are a lot of Mike's in the Bird Watching Society for some unknown reason!)

tmichael

Thanks from this Mike too.

I'm actually leaning towards this being a rather "blued up" Verditer myself now, mainly because of the line of scales forming a kind of moustachial, which does seem to be diagnostic.

I think the short bill in Verditer seems further exaggerated by their having extensive feathering across the base of the upper mandible, which seems most extensive in adult males and a lot less so in females and other ages,and to be subject to individual variation. This bird seems to have none at all, hence the bigger looking bill.

Attached, by way of a parting gift for all the pleasure the Forum has given me this year, a picture of a bird that is in the same genus as Verditer, Nilgiri Flycatcher Eumyias albicaudatus, photographed in the Western Ghats in Southern India (where else?) in February 2008.

Happy New Year 2010!

Mike Turnbull

[ Last edited by tmichael at 31/12/2009 23:21 ]

lmichael

I had a look for the bird this morning, unsuccessfully, though along with several others saw a nice 'obvious' male Verditer - the same bird as in L-Mike's first three photos.

I think Mike T's point regarding the extensive feathering at the base of the upper mandible on male Verditer is a good one. Regarding the 'sort of moustachial' this also shows on John Holmes' TPK bird which, on the basis of the photos obviously is a Verdite.

So, an instructive exercise but I think that the conclusion is that this bird was a Verditer.

Best regards

Mike Leven