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Topic: Reposts - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認 (Read 1353 times) |
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Webcreeper
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Reposts - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認
« on: Jun 17th, 2006, 8:01pm » |
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on May 15th, 2006, 12:38pm, Joe Yip wrote:九龍零碎鳥況（油尖旺，大角咀 - 美孚，紅磡）
[size=1]為免麻煩，亦為免質疑，把範圍擴闊一些吧，
反正在紀錄上，也只說市區鳥況，都只是報告一份．
也可把其他零碎的發現，都併進這裡來
... …
@ 28.3.06
West of Mongkok
為數３－４隻，比小綠大一倍的 不知名 鶯，
也迷路，在這小公園內裹腹．
來得快，走得更快，只可以找到這幀．
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on May 15th, 2006, 10:41pm, Mike Kilburn wrote:These are an excellent set of records from an unusual area!
The warbler photographed on 28th March looks to mee like it might be Sykes' Warbler (a recent split from Booted Warbler). If so it is a very good record - only the second or third record for Hong Kong.
Why Sykes' Warbler?
The long pale bill with a short supercilium before the eye eliminates all phylloscopus warblers, and the square-ended tail I think eliminates the acrocephalus warblers, hence Sykes as my best bet.
I'd be interested to hear what others think.
Cheers
Mike K |
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on May 16th, 2006, 10:36am, Joe Yip wrote: Thanks Mike.
A flock of 3-4 of them come and gone very fast, I have only about 5 mins to take them.
They moved quickly on the top of trees.
My gear cannot AF in these environment. It's difficult to take them with MF.
Here are 3 of 5 pictures I've got.
Cropped and for your reference.
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on May 16th, 2006, 9:20pm, miket wrote: Everything we can see on the possible Sykes's Warbler looks good for that species, but are you sure there were 3-4 of them - that sounds very odd.
Mike Turnbull |
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| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2006, 8:05pm by Webcreeper » |
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Webcreeper
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Re: Transfer - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認
« Reply #1 on: Jun 17th, 2006, 8:02pm » |
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on May 17th, 2006, 1:52am, macca wrote: Hi Mike and all,
forgive me for putting my two-penneth in, but.....
Now I could be wrong (read-probably am!) but despite Sykes generally looking very acrocephaline I feel this bird looks just too much like an acrocephalus warbler.
Are the undertail coverts a little too long for a Hippolais Warbler? They appear (on the bottom image) to extend 3/4 down the length of the tail, also, the outer-tail feathers atleast (noticable on the first image?) appear very short, much like those on an 'acro'. The tail does indeed look square ended but I feel this may be due to the way the feathers are being held.
Even if this were correct, it still leaves the question of which acrocephalus warbler! 
Best wishes,
Ian (UK)
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on May 17th, 2006, 7:49am, Mike Kilburn wrote: Dear Ian and others
I have to admit that the first species I thought of was Blyth's Reed, but wend for Sykes's on the basis of the tail shape and long pale lower mandible.
I have no claim to expertise and certinly do not have a definitive answer but have seen all the contenders in China and/or HK. Reed Warbler has never occurrd in HK, but there is one record of fuscus from E China and it breeeds in Xinjiang. There are no records of Marsh Warbler anywhere near and none in China.
I think we can ignore any prospect of Paddyfield, Manchurian or Black-browed Reed becuase the super does not extend beyond the eye, and its clealy not an Oriental, Great or Thick-billed Reed.
I think we can also eliminate Blunt-winged on the length of the bill, and the fact it ought to have a dark tip to the lower mandible.
Forgive me for disagreeing, but I stick by my original thoughts about the tail being square-ended. However I agree that the undertial coverts extend beyond halfway down the tail.
I don not think it shows an eyering, as fuscus Reed Warbler should show, too much in the way of a supercilium.
For me it comes down to a decision between Blyth's Reed and Sykes's Warbler (with fuscus Reed Warbler as a dark horse contender with an outside chance). The all pale lower mandible appears to be more consistent with Sykes's than Blyth's, especially given the spring date.
I have no way to account for the fact that there 4-5 were seen together except for the scary notion that they may have been released/escaped from the bird market - it makes record assessment much harder if warblers are found to be traded through HK as there has been no evidence of this to date. I'll leave that particular to the Records committee.
I'd be interested to hear others' opinion of what is clearly an interesting bird.
Cheers
Mike K
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Webcreeper
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Re: Transfer - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認
« Reply #2 on: Jun 17th, 2006, 8:03pm » |
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on May 17th, 2006, 1:41pm, Joe Yip wrote:
Hi All,
Thank you for your kindly reply. 
Identifying Warbler is very very ~~~ very difficult to me.
What can I do is :
Just take the pics and tell what I remembered.
At the same time, I understand that human biasing is an important factor to be considered.
Birdwatcher may get the wrong message at a short glance.
Besides, the place is not near to the birdmarket. And I've never seen warbler in cages in the Birdmarket.
Good luck.
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on May 19th, 2006, 6:50pm, HF_Cheung wrote: In view of Mike's comment on a possible Syke's Warbler, I now post a photo of Syke's Warbler that I took in Xinjiang 2001 Summer. One can see for yourself how the two birds fit each other.
HF Cheung |
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on Jun 16th, 2006, 5:25pm, johnallcock wrote: I'd missed out on the discussion about this warbler but have just stumbled upon it. My personal feeling is that this actually appears to be a species of phylloscopus. The third picture clearly shows a long supercilium behind the eye, and the 'jizz' in all three is not quite right for an acro. Even the second of the three pictures (which is the one originally posted which prompted this discussion, and does look slightly acro-like) seems to show some sort of supercliium behind the eye, but the angle of the head makes this slightly unclear. On my screen there is a slight green tinge to the upperparts, again consistent with a phyllosc.
If this is a phyllosc, it would also explain the problem of habitat and behaviour (it would certainly be very unusual for any species of acrocephalus or hippolais to be travelling in a fast-moving flock in a tree-top!)
So for me, the question is which species of phyllosc? There I must admit I struggle slightly more. My first reaction was arctic warbler but I think the completely pale lower mandible rules this out, and the date would be unusual. My best guess would be eastern crowned warbler, but the bird does not seem quite bright enough, especially the undertail coverts. A trick of the light maybe?
Incidentally, with reference to the comments about trade in warblers, I have in the past seen eastern crowned warbler for sale in one of the bird shops in Yuen Long. So maybe there is some trade at a very low level? |
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on Jun 17th, 2006, 2:41am, macca wrote: Acro, Hippo, Phyllosc!
An interesting selection of personal opinions, which given the topics residence in the 'Birding Reports & Tips' section, is perhaps being missed by the birding 'masses' as John has pointed out. Any chance of it being moved to the 'Bird identification' section, where it could be better discussed?
For what it's worth I'm still sticking with an acrocephalus 
All the best,
Ian (UK) |
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Joe Yip
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Re: Reposts - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認
« Reply #3 on: Jun 20th, 2006, 12:05pm » |
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有關台灣鳥友的參巧:
http://nature.hc.edu.tw/vbb/showthread.php?t=2091&page=3&pp=10
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如果都是在樹上跳的話.... 短翅樹鶯的可能性比較大.
robert
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總覺得怪怪的, 建議貼去自然中心看看steve的意見.
robert
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http://nc.kl.edu.tw/bbs/showthread.php?t=4565
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These photos aren't very clear and I can't see enough on them to be of help. You can't see the upperside or primary shape/length and I suspect the colours aren't quite "true". It is not even easy to say which genus it is. A couple of Acrocephalus species show that kind of head pattern (and would have "bunched" primaries), but it is more likely Phylloscopus or Hippolais if it is actively feeding in the canopy. In March many warblers will be in heavy moult, which may change how they look somewhat. There was a photo recently on this website of Arctic Warbler "lacking" a supercilium (with "grey" head), this entirely due to moult. More photos from different angles would be helpful.
SteveM
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我的看法跟也是照片拍攝角度資訊仍嫌不足，如未能判定初級飛羽長短，背部羽色 與頭部羽色對比情形，另外如攝影者現場尺寸大小判定等，也是重要資訊。
不過如此鳥若為兄所懷疑─為某種樹鶯的話，CHINESE BUSH WARBLER 的眉線似乎是最短的，供參考。
Robin
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In the third photo it really does just look like an Arctic Warbler Phylloscopus borealis (short, square tail), albeit with a long bill. It is OK for Arctic Warbler to lack black tip to lower mandible. Interestingly, the supercilium looks more prominent on the right side of its head than on its left. The ear coverts also look nicely mottled (as in Arctic Warbler), but again only on the right side of the head. The "missing" supercilium and "grey-looking" head might just be a feature of moult and wear. There were some really "messy" and greyish Arctic Warblers in Chi Gu this March. Chinese Bush Warbler I imagine will be a real "skulker" (i.e. on the ground).
SteveM
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Michael_Leven
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Re: Reposts - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認
« Reply #4 on: Jun 21st, 2006, 4:25pm » |
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I missed the beginning of this thread while in China so sorry for the late input.
For me this is an Arctic Warbler - classic Arctic behaviour, structure (looks rather big headed and short tailed), primary projection, relatively long undertail coverts and square tail. Bill size and shape (broad base and quite long) is right, perhaps less black on the lower mandible than most but there is a hint of a dark smudge, relatively strong pale legs, much pale feathering on the "cheeks".
The only thing wrong for Arctic Warbler is the short supercilium but this is on one side only, on the other it appears much more normal. On this date an Arctic Warbler will be in general head and body moult which accounts for the odd supercilium and the slightly scruffy supercilium.
I can't read the Chinese about 3 - 4 birds in a flock but I would take a guess that it was a flock of Phylloscopus spp. not all Arctic's as this is a rather early date for this species in HK
Best regards
Mike Leven
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Paul Leader
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Re: Reposts - Warbler ID 轉貼 - 鶯的辨認
« Reply #5 on: Jun 22nd, 2006, 3:25pm » |
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I also think that this is an acrocephalus warbler. Syke’s Warbler can be easily eliminated as this lacks pale outer webs to the outer tail feathers, the undertail coverts are too long (Hippolais warblers have quite short utcs), and the structure is wrong; Syke’s has a very long tail and is thus structurally more similar to the longer-tailed small across which this is not (but I’ll get onto that in a moment). Booted Warbler is structurally more like this bird but can also be eliminated on tail pattern and utc length.
Whilst I can see why this bird looks quite Phylloscopus like, especially on the last photo (and if it is a phyllosc, it can only be Arctic Warbler) I think this option can also be eliminated for the following reasons: the supercilium is really only obvious in front of the eye – if this was an Arctic Warbler the super would be extremely long and extending to the nape, it would also be above the eye not meeting the front of the eye as it does on this bird; the lack of an eyestripe also eliminates Arctic Warbler – whilst the lores look somewhat darker on one photo, on the others the lores and the eyestripe are really poorly marked whereas on all the possible phylloscs these would be solidly dark and quite broad and would reach the rear of the ear coverts); the tail shape fits one of the short-tailed acros being rather square (which is typical of Blyth’s Reed, Reed and Marsh) but with the outer tail feathers being obviously shorter (about 5-8 mm I would guess) whereas on the possible Phylloscopus warblers the outer tail feathers are the same length as the rest of the tail); the rounded shape of the tail feathers – especially the central ones is also wrong for a phyllosc which would show more obviously pointed tail feathers; the bill is too long even for Arctic Warbler; a pale lower mandible is only exceptionally shown be Arctic W ( I have never seen one); the shape of the bill from below is wrong for a Phylloscopus in that it is broad-based and apparently slightly convex – most Phylloscopus show a narrow based and slightly concave bill shape and even those that show a broad base to the bill (e.g. Arctic Warbler and Eastern Crowned) have a straight-sided or slightly concave bill; the darker and brown looking flanks are totally incorrect for Arctic, and although may fit some other phylloscs such as Radde’s, such species are readily eliminated on other features; Arctic Warbler would show darker streaks on the upper breast; and the greater coverts show an obvious rufous fringe and lack any pale tips.
So, for these reasons I think it is an acro. The head pattern, short tail and relatively square tail eliminate all but Blyth’s Reed, Marsh and Reed Warbler. The lack of any super behind the eye, the habitat and the fact that Bylth’s Reed is know to winter in SE Asia (the other two winter in sub Saharan Africa) all make me believe that this is a Blyth’s Reed Warbler; however to be really, really sure we would want to be able to see the primary projection – I don’t suppose that you have a picture that shows this?!
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