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Topic: Our Streams and Rivers 河溪治理工程 (Read 6980 times) |
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鳥友Ａ(BWA)
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #1 on: Oct 23rd, 2003, 1:16pm » |
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Apparently there is some conflict between flood prevention and conservation.
Does anyone know the answers to the following questions?
1. Are these projects subject to Environmental Impact Assessment?
2. If so, how do they weigh the need against conservation?
3. What are the roles of AFCD and EPD in the planning, evaluation, approval and monitoring of such schemes?
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Forrest FONG
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #2 on: Oct 23rd, 2003, 2:28pm » |
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on Oct 23rd, 2003, 1:16pm, 鳥友Ａ(BWA) wrote:Apparently there is some conflict between flood prevention and conservation.
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I don't agree. Flood prevention and conservation should not have any conflict with each other. We can do something to prevent flooding and protect the natural environment at the same.
The existing problem of the flooding prevent works damaging our nature environment is due to the responsible officers/engineers (DSD) only concern the flooding problem from the engineering & financial aspects. There is no sustainable design or nature conservation concept in their minds and in our government's policy.
As I understand, all these projects are subject to EIA and have been approved by AFCD and EPD, at least they don't have any comment regarding nature conservation and environment except noise & pollution problem.
Our naive Government claimed in the Nature Conservation Policy Review Document that the existing policy/regulations being implemented to protect sites of high ecological values are effective and adequate. Too bad, too bad.... It is poor that they are still feeling that all the public are as ignorant as they are.
 
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| « Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2003, 6:21pm by Forrest FONG » |
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felixcat
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #3 on: Oct 24th, 2003, 12:09pm » |
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I am not going to answer the questions here but I just want to say DSD is responsible for design & build the drainage system to prevent flooding. Nevertheless, the issue, implementation and enforcement of environmental policies are duties of EPD as well as Planning Dept. and TDD. I understand the general public when seeing the contruction work on site by DSD may blame DSD. But you have to think DSD is just one of the Works Dept and who make such bad policies?
Of course, those projects prior to implementaiton are subject to EIA. You have to know our Government usually have their own views. Just like the recent case of Reclamination of Victoria Habour. I think public consultation becomes more important in EIA. Be alert, responsive and reactive to those projects that you think are damaging our environment. Long Valley is a good example that we can still remember.
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鳥友Ａ(BWA)
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #4 on: Oct 24th, 2003, 9:38pm » |
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Some info. on the "improvement works" in DSD's website:
http://www.dsd.gov.hk/flood_prevention/long_term_improvement_measures/ma jor_projects/index.htm
"In recent years, the flooding problem has been further exacerbated. Rapid developments in the rural areas have expanded the built up and paved areas. Rainwater which formerly stored in fields or fish ponds or infiltrated as groundwater in undeveloped land will now become surface runoff and enter into the drainage system within a short period, thus increasing the flow in the system. This results in more frequent flooding because the existing drainage system is incapable of coping this additional flow."
Thanks to development, we are going to see more and more concrete channels as there are less and less fields and fishponds.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2003, 9:39pm by 鳥友Ａ(BWA) » |
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felixcat
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #5 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 10:46am » |
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I understand the feeling of 鳥友Ａ(BWA) and I want to say pinpointing DSD is not fair as human beings (not just DSD) keep developing our environment into concrete forests, which believed to be our masterpieces providing a more comfortable environment for us with the environmental costs from other plants and animals.
Anyway, to make the development wisely done and make our government as well as the general public understand the importance of Conservation 自然保育, voice out as you are real environmentists but they aren't.
Support any sustainable design or nature conservation concept as claimed by Forrest. And I am interesting in understanding more in this aspects. Let's discuss!
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Mr X
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #6 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 3:21pm » |
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DSD, AFCD, TDD and EPD have some so-called env-friendly drainage design for the concrete channel.
http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/english/environmentinhk/eia_planning/guide_ref /drainage.html
From the visual pt of view, it is better than just bare concrete.
However, the grass makes no compensation or mitigation for the loss of stream habitats, which are home to freshwater fish and birds.
Pls note that the env-friendly designs are focused on the bank along the stream, which are useless to the fish and most birds.
I guess nobody will put artificial reef on the land for enhancing the habitat for marine fish.
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青蛙仔
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Environmental Friendly Design?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 5:15pm » |
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啊！又學到口野啦！原來這就是所謂環保友善的渠務設計，好像和以前的石屎渠沒 有分別，只是用草皮蓋在厚厚的石屎上，在旁加些樹木以增多些綠色在圖紙上，對 我們這些土生土長(應該是水生水長)的青蛙(我有勞文氏樹蛙咁矜貴架)又有用嗎？ 有尊重河床及兩岸原有的生態環境嗎？
以下是我們政府對環境保護的一些政策，如有機會一看它們的環保工作報告，便會 知道所謂的環保工作和措施是甚麼，唉…
環保政府
為了全力保護香港的環境，政府盡量避免其本身活動損害環境。1992年，所有提交 行政局的議案文件均需設有「環保」章節，說明工程項目可能造成的環境影響。自 1994年起，所有政府部門和決策局均委派環保經理監察本身的環保措施及環保表現 。政府為了樹立良好榜樣，差不多所有決策局及部門已由2000年開始每年編製環保 工作報告。
http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/tc_chi/environmentinhk/eia_planning/eia_mainco ntent.html
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鳥友Ａ(BWA)
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #8 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 11:30pm » |
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I am not against DSD, EPD nor flood prevention. I just want to know what has been done to find a more environment-friendly solution.
Do we know of any better solutions than decorated concrete channels that have been proven elsewhere? 
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felixcat
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #9 on: Oct 27th, 2003, 9:57am » |
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If you were the decision maker in Gov't (whatever the department) and you had to deal with the flooding problems causing loss of life and resources, what you propose to do more environmental-friendly?
Make good, practiceable and cost-effective suggestions with the consideration of affected parties. I am interested to know!!
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Typhoon Faye
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #10 on: Nov 19th, 2003, 10:17pm » |
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Dear fellow nature lovers,
I am a birdwatcher and practising civil engineer. I would like to share with all of you my personal experience in flood prevention in Hong Kong.
The mode of flooding in HK is quite different from other parts of the world. First of all, the annual average rainfall in Hong Kong is about 2200 millimeters, one of the highest among the cities in the Pacific Rim. On the other hand, we have some very high and rocky mountains. Rain falling on the mountains can turn into surface runoff and flow into the rivers in a very fast rate. We also have extensive lowlands in Yuen Long and Sheung Shui areas which we called "flood plains". The land is so flat and the river flowing down from the mountains through these flood plains will suddenly slow down. The situation got worse in the 1980s and 1990s when much of the agricultural ground in the flood plains were developed, causing obstruction in the rivers and reducing the flood storage. Hence, when there is heavy rain, a very large amount of flood water can accumulate at the lowland at a very fast rate, causing severe risk to lives. Here we have one of the most challenging flood protection task in the world.
The only practical strategy to control the flooding in the Northern New Territories is to increase the conveyance capacity of the major river networks by training the rivers. DSD has been trying hard not to interrupt the environment while carrying out river training work but obviously the "natural" form of the meandering rivers must be altered to achieve the goal. To compensate, a lot of "green" features have been incorporated into the trained rivers, as some of you here have already pointed out.
However, due to our steep and mountaineous topography in HK, the velocity of river flow can be very very fast during rainstorm. In some places "hard" material must be applied at the channel beds and banks to prevent erosion. Otherwise, if these rivers are made of soft materials, the banks might collapse during heavy rain, causing greater danger to people living around the area. As the flow velocity are expected to exceed 6m/s in some steep channels, any drainage engineer would tell you that concrete or grasscrete are the only suitable material for the river beds and banks. That's why we have the concrete channels in Upper Shing Mun River and mid-reach Lam Tsuen River.
I can assure every one here that the government is not going to train every rivers in Hong Kong and turn them into concrete monsters. River training works are identified based on sophisticated analysis, including advanced computational modelling works. Works would only be carried out when there is the necessary need to provide flood protection to nearby residents. All the works must satisfy the requirements under the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance.
One of the excellent example of making a balance between river training and environment protection is Kam Tin River near Nam San Wai in Yuen Long. This is where we are now seeing the crocodile playing happily with Mr. John Lever from Australia. In late 90s, DSD built a new drainage channel at the fish ponds in Nam San Wai to convey flood water from Kam Tin and Yuen Long. To prevent affecting the ecology, the original river was retained in its natural state, as you can see from the TV News.
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鳥友Ａ(BWA)
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #11 on: Nov 20th, 2003, 10:39pm » |
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on Nov 19th, 2003, 10:17pm, Typhoon Faye wrote:I can assure every one here that the government is not going to train every rivers in Hong Kong and turn them into concrete monsters. ... To prevent affecting the ecology, the original river was retained in its natural state, as you can see from the TV News.
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Could you tell us, according to current plans, roughly how many more (can be length in metres) concrete monsters will be created before the flooding problem can be kept under control?
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Forrest FONG
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #12 on: Nov 21st, 2003, 12:16am » |
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I think we can never control the flooding problem even all the stream/rivers are trained to concrete channels. As mentioned in Typhoon Faye's message, the geographical charactres of NW of New Territories make it becoming a flood plain in the past and today. No flood plain could avoid flooding. It is natural. 天要下雨，娘要嫁人, no one can change it even he is Einstein or Yang Liwei.
According to the existing Government Policy, more and more rivers need to be become lifeless concrete channels day after day.
What is the existing Government Policy? no long-term planning strategy, useless land use control, so-called nature conservation policy, non-sustainable infrastructure design, illegal soil dumping, small (village) house development ... ...
Engineering approach is not the only way to solve flooding problem in our New Territories and our Government can't just rely on concrete channels.
Forrest
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| « Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2003, 8:54am by BBS Moderators » |
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FF
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青蛙仔
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銀河鐵道999
« Reply #13 on: Nov 21st, 2003, 9:53am » |
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這個問題令我想起以前曾經看過的一套松本零木的漫畫「銀河鐵道999」，內容描述未來世界的大多數人類為了避免疾病、衰老及死亡，將身體改造為冇血肉的機械，但雖然得到了所謂的永生，同時亦令他們失去愛情，失去對別人及大自然各種生物的關懷及保護，更忘記生命的意義，漫畫的情節令讀者再三反思人與人和人與大自然的關係，以及科技背後帶來的問題和甚麼才是問題的根源。
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| « Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2003, 8:42pm by 青蛙仔 » |
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John Holmes
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Re: Our Streams and Rivers
« Reply #14 on: Nov 22nd, 2003, 1:31pm » |
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on Nov 19th, 2003, 10:17pm, Typhoon Faye wrote:
One of the excellent example of making a balance between river training and environment protection is Kam Tin River near Nam San Wai in Yuen Long. This is where we are now seeing the crocodile playing happily with Mr. John Lever from Australia. In late 90s, DSD built a new drainage channel at the fish ponds in Nam San Wai to convey flood water from Kam Tin and Yuen Long. To prevent affecting the ecology, the original river was retained in its natural state, as you can see from the TV News.
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I note that "Bo-bo" the crocodile prefers the original UNCONCRETED section of the river !
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