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        Discussion Area 討論區 >> General 一般問題 >>  Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查請勿駕車進入米埔
        
(Message started by: Lew_Young on Apr 29^th, 2006, 9:42pm)

Title: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查請勿駕車進入米埔
Post by Lew_Young on Apr 29^th, 2006, 9:42pm

Dear All,

Over the past couple of years, there has been an increase in the number of private cars with Closed Area Permits entering Mai Po. Some of drivers got their FCA car permits through WWF because they were WWF staff or were carrying out research in the reserve. Other people got their permits through the HKBWS because they were waterbird counters who needed to drive their vehicles into the reserve in order to carry out their monthly counts.

Some months ago, a number of people mentioned that they were concerned about the number of cars driving along the FCA road and the disturbance that this causes to both the birds and visitors. Other people have asked why some cars can get permits to come into the reserve but they cannot get permits for their own cars.

As a result, WWF decided that in order to make it fair for everyone, we would stop helping our staff get permits to drive their own cars into the reserve, and we would also only help researchers to get their own car permits in very special cases. However, if anyone wants to drive their vehicle into the reserve for a special piece of work, WWF would help phone the Border Police and ask them to allow that vehicle in for that one occasion.

WWF is now also asking those Society members who got their FCA vehicle permits through the HKBWS, to please only drive their cars into Mai Po when they are carrying out formal waterbird counts or other recognized studies for the Society. This is because a small number of these people with vehicle permits are driving their cars into Mai Po just so that they can take photographs or watch birds, rather than carry out formal work for the Society..

I hope the people with FCA vehicle permits can understand that to have this voluntary system in place will help minimize disturbance inside Mai Po which can only help to benefit the birds we watch and other visitors.

If you have any questions or comments then please let me know and I will try and answer them.

Many thanks,

Lew Young

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Karl on Apr 29^th, 2006, 11:26pm

I totally concur the suggestion and further on top, drivers should sign their name somewhere with reasons given.

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by KK Hui on May 1^st, 2006, 10:04am

Lew,

Any chance of WWFHK operates a mini electric shuttle to/from the car park and Gate 107 during certain hours, for example, an hour before high tide (2.2m) at Deep Bay. This would help people like myself carrying heavy photographic equipment to the boardwalk hides ...

Thanks!

KK Hui FRPS
www.geocities.com/kkhui_001

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Andrew on May 1^st, 2006, 10:23am

I'm not sure whether this is 'tongue in cheek' but book me in if it happens!

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by miket on May 1^st, 2006, 2:26pm

I would actually suggest that
(i) the presence of cars along the fence road represents vastly less of a disturbance of the birds than groups of people walking - especially the very large groups that we frequently see,
(ii) these rare trips made by car by birders who have the permits because they carry out entirely voluntary work in the interests of conservation - fees from AFCD are donated to HKBWS - constitute a tiny fraction of the number of vehicle journeys made along that road, the vast majority being made by fishpond operators vehicles, WWF vehicles and police vehicles (thus if there's any significant disturbance it's from those sources, but I don't see how you can stop that!),
(iii) I drive in about six times a year, at least four times for monthly counts usually (Nov. - Feb, sometimes others, undertaken at as little as 24 hours notice because someone can't do it), plus maybe a couple of times a year when not 'on duty', simply because I particularly want to look at, say Pond 20, and perhaps the southern end ponds. On these visits, over the five years or so I've had a road permit, I don't think I can remember 'disturbing' anybody in any way - how is that really possible, unless people are just driving rather too fast near groups of pedestrians? In fact I hardly ever even pass anybody on the road.
(iv) I counted the reserve at Mai Po on foot for years before I enquired about the possibility of a road permit, and have been involved in counting birds at Mai Po for nearly nineteen years, so I like to think I'm as entitled to it as anyone.

I'm sorry but I'm not too impressed with this complaint, and especially not with the signing-in book suggestion, which I would request we do NOT pursue, above all because there's enough ridiculous paper-work and hassle surrounding visits to Mai Po as it is - when they'll actually let us in, that is. If people wish to have a permit themselves they should get involved in counting and other types of voluntary contribution of their time, and if they really have a complaint concerning disturbance they should feel free to note the car number and inform the police - I do hope they wouldn't just do that without genuine grounds for complaint, however.

Now, if it's disturbance your interested in, go have a look off the Boardwalk!!

Mike Turnbull

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Andrew on May 1^st, 2006, 5:31pm

I am currently unable to get in to Mai Po even on foot. Whilst the reserve was closed my permit expired and I forgot to renew it. On my first visit, I collected my closed area permit which WWF had automatically renewed and the girl in the office took my details and I was allowed on to the reserve. The second time it was a nightmare. Nobody wanted to take a decision on whether it was OK for me to go in or not. The wardens hut chap was pretty unhelpful and it took me over 30 minutes before I was told categorically this was the last time I could enter pending renewal of my permit. Well my application is still pending and I haven't bothered to try and go back to MPNR. The bureaucracy is petty and pathetic. I campaigned to get the reserve reopened, wrote my letters,I make donations to WWF HK but when I actually want to birdwatch and have allowed inadvertently my permit to lapse you'd think I was Jack the Ripper. God knows what would happen if I wanted to drive a car round the reserve. So instead of enjoying my week off at MPNR as intended I'm off to Borneo tomorrow and perhaps, just perhaps, someone will have deigned to renew my permit by the time I get back. No hurry chaps. Take your time.

Andrew Hardacre.

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Bob Thompson on May 1^st, 2006, 6:14pm

I would like to back the posting by KK Hui, I raised the question of an electric buggy to Lew Young earlier in the year and if implemented I am sure the buggy would be in constant use by photographers with heavy gear as well as the handicapped.

With an electric vehicle available it may not be necessary for those doing voluntary work to use there own car

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Neil on May 1^st, 2006, 6:57pm

I also advocate an electric car/mini bus system to do a regular run around the reserve (hourly should be enough ) to move people around . It's not only those with heavy equipment that have a problem but anyone that have any physical incapacity would appreciate it. Neil.

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by World Cup 2006 on May 1^st, 2006, 7:44pm

I further suggest the option of bike loan or rental operated by WWF. They equally serve the purpose of better mobility and at the same time are more environmental friendly. :)

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Webcreeper on May 1^st, 2006, 7:44pm

How much would anyone like to pay for the electric car?

Not just the initial cost, but the administrative costs, driver, insurance and on-going maintenance?

Alternatively, would anyone like to pay for one or two decent tricycles instead?

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Lynx on May 1^st, 2006, 8:11pm

I support the idea of bicycle rental at WWF office so that car users can "park and ride" there. Moreover, how about special permission for environmental-friendly cars, e.g. ToXXta Prius, which is both low noise and low gas emission?

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Bob Thompson on May 1^st, 2006, 9:03pm

on 05/01/06 at 19:44:18, Webcreeper wrote:

It sounds like you are trying to get us all fit.

Electric vehicle or good tricycle, I don't mind but remember its been many years since some of us have ridden a bike

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Lew_Young on May 1^st, 2006, 9:24pm

Thank you for all your comments.

We will certainly look into the possibility of having some kind of bicycle rental system for photgraphers with heavy equipment that they can use to get into the reserve.

I will contact some of you who have posted messages above to see what kind of bicycle would be most convenient.

Thanks, Lew

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Bob Thompson on May 1^st, 2006, 9:53pm

Thanks Lew, can I have a chauffeur driven bike

Bob

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by World Cup 2006 on May 1^st, 2006, 10:11pm

Let us compromise - an electric operated bike ;D

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by cywong on May 1^st, 2006, 10:32pm

on 05/01/06 at 21:53:29, Bob Thompson wrote:

Thanks Lew, can I have a chauffeur driven bike

Bob

I favour this suggestion. Mai Po is one of my favourite birdwatching place but I am afraid of driving any vehicles including bicycles.

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by World Cup 2006 on May 2^nd, 2006, 12:07am

Let us compromise - an electric operated bike ;D

http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/Members/richdadpoordad/images/ghp_4x4_topright.jpg

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by KK Hui on May 2^nd, 2006, 8:23am

Bicycles or electrical '4-wheel cycles' as suggested is not an efficient transporting means especially when there are more than one person who wants to use it. How many of these would you allowed into the Reserve at any one time then? I'm sure it would cause even more 'disturbance' along the FCA road as originally alleged with cars.

I could have bought a good brand new folded-bicycle myself for under $600- and be independent! But I give up that idea since it's not practical when one is carrying heavy gear at the same time. There is risk riding along some of the narrow foot paths in the Reserve where there is fish ponds along the sides and there has been known incident where people riding on a bike falls into it too!

Of course there is the setting up cost, on-going maintenance, driver etc. for the propsed electric shuttle. But it is a fee paying one for anyone wants to use the service. The setup would perhaps have to come from a fund raising exercise organized by WWFHK. The fare have to be calculated on the actual running cost amongst others factors such as traffic etc. and any subsidy that is available from other source(s). I think a fee of $10 to $20 dollars per trip would be a reasonable charge to begin with. Remember we're not asking for the service to be a 24 hrs/7 days one.

KK Hui FRPS
www.geocities.com/kkhui_001

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Michael_Leven on May 2^nd, 2006, 12:29pm

Dear All

I am afraid that I think that this discussion of electrically operated bikes etc is missing the point.

In my opinion the key point is the issue raised by Mike Turnbull i.e. to what extent is there a real problem of disturbance to birds caused by birdwatchers' vehicles. I am not convinced - in my opinion birds are much more sensitive to disturbance by people on foot and I think that any photographer who has tried using their car as a mobile hide will back me up.

Personally, I was very disappointed when WWF advised me that they would not renew my vehicle permit. The times when I use my own vehicle on the reserve have generally included

- getting to bird ringing sites (very early in the morning for passerine ringing and at night for wader ringing)

- getting to the boardwalk in order to carry out counts

- driving to the south end of the reserve (Ponds 20 and 23-24) usually in late afternoon during the week when the reserve is deserted!

Though I consider that the latter use does not cause any disturbance to birds or birdwatchers I would have been prepared to volunteer to stop doing this and restrict the use of my vehicle to the first two categories. However, this suggested compromise was not accepted by WWF.

I think that it is likely that there will be occasions in the future when I will have to decline participation in ringing or HKBWS counts because of the restriction - not out of contrariness but because there will be times when the extra time involved (for example cycling out to the Scrape at 8 pm) will be too great.

Mike Leven

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Captain on May 2^nd, 2006, 1:45pm

How about asking HKBWS directly apply vehicular FCA permits for ringers and waterfowl surveyors?

The current old practice is because there was no office staff in the HKBWS at that time. So, WWF helps to apply permits for the members of HKBWS.

Now we have office staff and a very clear justification (Waterfowl Count). So, perhaps it is time to rethink the whole FCA permit application process.

As far as I know from my working experience, any organization with justification (better with backup document from the govt, but not necessary) could apply
FCA permits. Approval or not is subject to the decision of the Police.

Captain

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by World Cup 2006 on May 2^nd, 2006, 3:32pm

My suggestion of electric bikes is not meant for serious consideration (see my emotion icon). I do not think it is a viable option either. On the other hand, the most basic bike or tricycle is a more convenient and efficient way for birdwatchers or photographers with heavy gear.

I would also like to support the views forwarded by both Mikes. Credits must be given to volunteer workers whose personal interests should no doubt be in line with their volunteer work. It is not possible or at least artificial to distinguish a pure work related visit and a visit of mixed purposes. As long as there are clear criteria for the permits that apply to whoever has equivalent contribution, it has nothing to do with special privileges.

Personally I have not encountered any significant disturbance by vehicles inside the Reserve. I therefore believe the real cause of the complaint is differential treatment discussed above.

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by Bob Thompson on May 2^nd, 2006, 5:23pm

on 05/02/06 at 13:45:22, Captain wrote:

Captain,

If an individual applies for a FCA, the Frontier Police at Fanling will ask the applicant to apply to WWF as they are the managers of the site. That what the police told me.

Title: Re: Cars inside Mai Po　持汽車通行證者非為鳥類普查
Post by felixcat on May 2^nd, 2006, 11:58pm

on 04/29/06 at 21:42:32, Lew_Young wrote:

Some months ago, a number of people mentioned that they were concerned about the number of cars driving along the FCA road and the disturbance that this causes to both the birds and visitors. Other people have asked why some cars can get permits to come into the reserve but they cannot get permits for their own cars.

As a result, WWF decided that in order to make it fair for everyone ....

Apart from Mr. Turnbull's point about the appeared distriburbance to birds, I am also not convinced that the fairness is made for avoiding from being asked why some cars can get permits and why some cannot. If it is the WWF's direction, I am afraid I have to give up my entry permit one day when someone asks why some people can freely get an entry permit from AFCD by just paying the membership fee to WWF and/or HKBWS.

I respect WWF and HKBWS's decision on who should be given the car permits because of thier own professional judgement but not avoidance of being challenged.

on 04/29/06 at 21:42:32, Lew_Young wrote:

.... This is because a small number of these people with vehicle permits are driving their cars into Mai Po just so that they can take photographs or watch birds, rather than carry out formal work for the Society..

And I hope it is NOT the intention to underrate any photography work inside the reserve.

Last but not least, as one of the regular visitors to MP, I of course concur any idea facilitating my photography work and, most importnatly, those who have difficulty in entering the reserve though I can still carry my heavy equipment on my foot.